Some startling facts about Japan's Land War

[SchwarzKatze]

Do the Dutch use the dot as decimal mark or number grouping? It says "9.171Mb" and I fear this may be a 9GB file…

Oh and didn't know RoC translated it too. It appears to be called "日軍對華作戰紀要叢書", contains only the parts relevant to the Chinese theater yet still amounts to whooping 21 million characters total according to Chinese Wikipedia.

I'm more interested to vol. 31 though, which contains the naval buildup before Pearl Harbor, maybe there's some less known projected ships that's never realized.
-----
Edit: Asagumo Shimbun was like the Stars and Stripes for the Japanese National Police Reserve and later JSDF between 1952 and 1962 before becoming independent, so it likely has strong ties to the government, not necessarily distancing the books.

 

[Grallak]

Another criticism of the Senshi Sōsho series was that it focused on operations, and that the analysis and description of subjects such as the line of communication (logistics), intelligence, and medical matters were extremely few. Other criticism was that the descriptions were too flat and often offered nothing but a list of facts. Many parts of Volume 3 may fall under the latter criticism in particular. However, as I mentioned, this could be the result of the author’s effort to just convey the facts or the oral evidence, obtained in the process of his research and writing, while leaving out his subjective judgments as much as possible.

So were those topics not discussed in general or what?
The more I look at this then the more I realize it's mostly facts about day to day operations in general without any long term goal. It reveals what forces they had, what their goals were (atleast vaguely) and their conduct. It's really about the actual warfare itself and not so much about the political spectrum behind it, which is kind of sad, but hey you can't have all, right?

It's about the tactical and smaller strategical aspect of the war, but not the Grand Battle plan, which of course only the top brass could really grasp, whoever those were. This is probably what interests me the most, how the Japanese navy and army worked together, their rivalry, who was pulling the strings, who followed who, what was the long time planning? Did they just take the days as the came? I guess only reading the volumes will help you understand this better.

 

[Porkman]

So were those topics not discussed in general or what?
The more I look at this then the more I realize it's mostly facts about day to day operations in general without any long term goal. It reveals what forces they had, what their goals were (atleast vaguely) and their conduct. It's really about the actual warfare itself and not so much about the political spectrum behind it, which is kind of sad, but hey you can't have all, right?

It's about the tactical and smaller strategical aspect of the war, but not the Grand Battle plan, which of course only the top brass could really grasp, whoever those were.

This one is the grand battle plan. It's supposedly the DEI but it's basically the entire southern Strategy. Also, is the granularity that's useful. Everyone talks about Japan's grand strategy, but what we don't have is good data on the day to day war from Japan's perspective.

 

[Admiral Piett]

We also have very, VERY little on Japanese intelligence. I wrote this on another forum:

"Post war interviews of Japanese personnel make up much of what we know on their side of things since the Japanese spent the time between the end of the war and the arrival of American occupation forces systematically burning every document they could get their hands on. Chief among these was anything war crime related, but lots of other stuff was destroyed too (even some operational records and such). It was a crime against history as it were. Our understanding of Japanese intelligence has been deeply hindered, since most of the documentation was destroyed and many code-breakers went underground to avoid being interviewed. In the words of one historian of Japanese intelligence (Edward Drea):

Thus the defeated Japanese could bow meekly, hiss perplexedly while denying knowledge of this or that code system, look confused about technical questions, and all the while laugh inwardly at the gullible Americans seated opposite them.

But the deception works both ways. The seemingly naive Americans knew from their code-breaking triumphs that the Japanese were feeding them transparent fabrications, but if they called the Japanese bluff they would have to reveal the extent and success of Allied cryptanalysis against Japan's codes. So both sides played out a farce which left us, as noted by Louis Allen, a fragmented version of Japanese communications intelligence accomplishments.

"

In the end, there are a handful of journal articles, a book chapter, some anecdotes here-and-there and one fairly short book by Ken Kotani discussing Japanese intelligence efforts before and during the war.

 

[fabius]

Why? Japanese got trashed in China many times while attacking urban areas. Why would they get an Urban buff? I'd be more afraid of the Soviets, or Americans because of all of their explosives and sub machine guns.

Also its true Japanese did not put any emphasize on recon and logistics. Many instances of the Japanese attacking Chinese positions at a 2-1 or 3-1 ratio, and getting defeated because of hubris. So much so, that it became the Chinese doctrine to retreat at the early stages of a Japanese assault, until Japanese infantry over extended their own supply lines, and then counter attack.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taierzhuang

FYI, the Japanese General who initiated this battle, was not supposed to go that deep into China, but he thought his plan would work so he did anyways.

By the way that is Li Zongren and Bai Chongxi of Guangxi Clique, the fake country in hoi3. What are they doing commanding Nationalist troops fighting the Japanese in Shandong. Maybe warlordism is not real in 1936, eh paradox?

Yeah, I didn't word that well. I meant say a like for like infantry tech at 1939 or 41, Germans etc could be stronger because of Japanese deficiencies. But those deficiencies, mgs support weapons etc, are less pronounced in close fighting. Make sense now?

 

[Grallak]

This one is the grand battle plan. It's supposedly the DEI but it's basically the entire southern Strategy. Also, is the granularity that's useful. Everyone talks about Japan's grand strategy, but what we don't have is good data on the day to day war from Japan's perspective.

A Grand battle plan and "Strategy" are not the same things. Strategy is what is done to complete a grand battle plan (arguably dominance of south eastern asia). Now what I mean as a Grand battle plan is more than just planning everyday tactics that are yet to come. Now what is important is how communcations, logistic and medicine was dealt with to complete this grand battle plan. "Do I have enough troops to march through Singapore to Delhi or will I have to stop at Burma and hope to establish a foothold? Since the other volumes have not been translated, it's really hard for anyone of us to tell, but strategy is what you use to overcome obstacles on your way to your goal. Unless there were any high ups who voiced their opinions in the work, then it will be little else than day to day activity, but no big picture. I mean, I know the Japanese were really tight in their options 1941, so anything other than complete dominance in one feel sweep was off the table, but I am just curious if they even did some preliminary gauging of the their opposition. Again, lack of intelligence is a big issue. Everything in China will pretty much just explain how combat was conducted, but I understand that the army in the southern pacific who were bossed around by the navy atleast tried to follow instructions they were given.

What I am pissy about is the fact that logistics and many other important aspects other than the actual battles themselves and facts don't appear to be given ample of discussion and that the Japanese army mostly lived on pillage all concept, which would explain the lack of information on Logistics. Kind of reminds me how difficult the swedish empire had supplying their troops during the Great northern war, but you'd think they would atleast discuss it somewhere.

Now I haven't read this, so I might aswell be completely wrong. I am merely voicing what I understood was the general idea of these series.

We lack intelligence, medical evaluation and logistics, arguably some of the most important aspects of a battle plan. Now, the Japanese weren't aware that their shipping was going to be hurt to this extent, so maybe they weren't that worried, hoping their own submarine fleet would deal with it, something which it tremendously failed to do, but what were their long term plans on supplying their troops in burma? You know what, not even sure why I am whining on you, I just wish I knew more about the war, but all we have is about Dutch indochina >.<

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

Who?
I had absolutely no idea. Link please.
Also, just before I posted this, I had one more post than you, so I ain't gonna take shit. Also, when did I say I have an interest in the IJN? I thought this was more of a focus on land combat. I know we weren't really specific, but don't assume I care for IJN.
But yeah, I can't see anyone investing in this or so, and Lars Ahlberg is just one guy, though you have perked my interest.

You mean www.combinedfleet.com?

Anyway, point was that there is an international group of scholars focused on Japanese military who go through Japanese sources, and not just modern day stuff but also period action reports and such which are hand written in old type script. In that light I felt you were being insolent, no offense meant.

If you are actually thinking of contacting Mr. Ahlberg, then best of luck. He is currently working on five part series on Japanese battleships.

 

[Grallak]

You mean www.combinedfleet.com?

Anyway, point was that there is an international group of scholars focused on Japanese military who go through Japanese sources, and not just modern day stuff but also period action reports and such which are hand written in old type script. In that light I felt you were being insolent, no offense meant.

If you are actually thinking of contacting Mr. Ahlberg, then best of luck. He is currently working on five part series on Japanese battleships.

Waaaaay too specific for my interest, but nice, I guess. Would rather see them working on making those translations, though. . .
Also, where are his entries, I can't find him in the database.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

Also, where are his entries, I can't find him in the database.

On the battleship page at least.

 

[Grallak]

On the battleship page at least.

It doesn't tell who is writting the articles. >.< Man I have no idea what the topic was anymore, I feel like were are getting way off topic here. Shouldn't we be discussing the actual game, not history?

The more I look back at the first page the more I realize just how out of touch the different organs in the military and government were throughout the entire war, and before it. This is why I made the post about there having to be some serious changes made prewar to deal with the disorganized state of Japan. Reminds me of every war thunder, world or warship or world of tank match ever. Basically people not helping their team mates, little to no way to directly communicate with your team mates or set up a large comprehensive battle plan. The Japanese might has well been lead by the Joker or doctor evil, that is how bloody inefficient their entire planning were. Can't blame them too much I suppose, a lot of things happened in the world and one can only change the fundamental way a government works so much in such a short span of time, but you'd think the generals would have atleast tried to make a plan before the war started or atleast kept their troops in check, in the very least. But yeah, Opportunism at it's finest.

 

[Porkman]

It doesn't tell who is writting the articles. >.< Man I have no idea what the topic was anymore, I feel like were are getting way off topic here. Shouldn't we be discussing the actual game, not history?

The more I look back at the first page the more I realize just how out of touch the different organs in the military and government were throughout the entire war, and before it. This is why I made the post about there having to be some serious changes made prewar to deal with the disorganized state of Japan. Reminds me of every war thunder, world or warship or world of tank match ever. Basically people not helping their team mates, little to no way to directly communicate with your team mates or set up a large comprehensive battle plan. The Japanese might has well been lead by the Joker or doctor evil, that is how bloody inefficient their entire planning were. Can't blame them too much I suppose, a lot of things happened in the world and one can only change the fundamental way a government works so much in such a short span of time, but you'd think the generals would have atleast tried to make a plan before the war started or atleast kept their troops in check, in the very least. But yeah, Opportunism at it's finest.

I don't know. For all that bad planning and discoordination, the whole operation went way ahead of schedule with less casualties than expected.

 

[Grallak]

I don't know. For all that bad planning and discoordination, the whole operation went way ahead of schedule with less casualties than expected.

They were fighting Dutch and brittish who were unprepared and preoccupied in europe. They had the element of surprise due to the insanity of their wager. There was also a desire to try to advance alongside their attack on pearl harbor to minimize the chance for retaliation from the enemy.

Anyways, I have become rather convinced than the military were unable to truly bend the population completely to it's will and was really late at making a total mobilization due to the fact that the military wasn't in complete control of the civic government. While it's true they had great influence over it, this was due to the image they wanted to preserve that there wasn't going to be any long conflict in China and found themselves dragged further and further into the war without being able to stop it. Let's remember the assassination attempts didn't become a regular thing until after they managed to take Manchuria due to Xuang leaving it to help Chiang in the Great plain war, and the military wasn't ready to stage a coup and convert Japan into the full blown military autocrati that the military aspired for. I think it would be really stupid to portay Japan as a full blown fascist country since facism it's was a very vague concept, and that imperialism and militarism is more fitting. It never really was that different from the UK, really, except the UK was better prepared for total war, not allowing the military to bully the ruling government, technologically (atleast in radar and and tanks) superior in many cases, while still retaining a civic society which worked much better than the one in Japan, which was actively seeking conflict to supply it's needs.

 

[vicerory]

Do the Dutch use the dot as decimal mark or number grouping? It says "9.171Mb" and I fear this may be a 9GB file…

Oh and didn't know RoC translated it too. It appears to be called "日軍對華作戰紀要叢書", contains only the parts relevant to the Chinese theater yet still amounts to whooping 21 million characters total according to Chinese Wikipedia.

I'm more interested to vol. 31 though, which contains the naval buildup before Pearl Harbor, maybe there's some less known projected ships that's never realized.
-----
Edit: Asagumo Shimbun was like the Stars and Stripes for the Japanese National Police Reserve and later JSDF between 1952 and 1962 before becoming independent, so it likely has strong ties to the government, not necessarily distancing the books.

The Dutch use a comma for decimals and a dot for number grouping.

 

[FOARP]

I'd love to see the government paying people to have it translated, but I guess that will never happen.

Considering the pointless "scholarship" that some professors are paid to perform (even in the area of Japanese studies), you'd think some university history or Japanese/East Asian Studies department could spare the resources for this.

Speaking as someone who is trying (gradually - it's going to take years) to write a book of history (I don't dream of getting it published) focused on an aspect of the war in East Asia, getting hold of decent sources is the biggest issue. Chinese scholarship has picked up in a big way over the past decade (though it's always going to be cramped in the present political climate).

 

[Grallak]

Considering the pointless "scholarship" that some professors are paid to perform (even in the area of Japanese studies), you'd think some university history or Japanese/East Asian Studies department could spare the resources for this.

Speaking as someone who is trying (gradually - it's going to take years) to write a book of history (I don't dream of getting it published) focused on an aspect of the war in East Asia, getting hold of decent sources is the biggest issue. Chinese scholarship has picked up in a big way over the past decade (though it's always going to be cramped in the present political climate).

An average man works for around 600 dollars a day. You can buy one volume for 80. The amount you'd least had to pay just to get one, in case you ask a high school/university student to translate just one volume that is in 600 pages japanese would be very very costly. I don't know of any organization who could amass enough people who are interested in this stuff to translate it. If I did this for like say 200 dollars, which is a stupidly small sum for so much work, it would still probably take me atleast an entire month of none stop translating. AKA 20 pages / day for thirty days. So if you pay an actual translator then it would be 200 dollars a day, which would still be relatively cheap, so basically 200 x 30 which is 6000 dollars, for one translated volume. And these are under good conditions. Now, I might go for like say 3000 plus the copy, because I might just want to read one for myself and for the fun of it, but you have to keep in mind I would dedicate a shit load of time to translating, so yeah, anything less than a hundred dollars a day for about 20 pages would be difficult. Now I know that might be much for some, but a lot of people wouldn't learn Japanese just to work for a hundred quid a day. That is just not plausible. 5 dollars for a page, are you insane? Well, some people have rates, and get paid per word, so it can be all different, but even so, the standard amount for a taiwanese slav- I mean translator is around 100 quids a day. Even if he manage 20 or thirty or 40, that is going to be the amount you have to pay EVERYDAY for thirty days until you see that volume released. Assuming most people here don't feel like paying that sum for something like that, and aslong as the Japanese government decided to screw english lessons sideway, that is what you can except for this.

Also, Japanese HAVE spared time to make these books, just not for english speakers. The world isn't dictated by the West alone.
At anyrate, say you could read one volume in like four weeks, then multiply that by 102, then you would have. . . . about 408 weeks total. A year is about 56 so it would take me about eight years to go through all the material, or in the very least two to four, in the least. (Is a a big war, can't be helped, right?) Now Imagine how long it would be if it involved all other aspects that were left out.

 

[fastfreddie77]

Can you help me out? I keep searching for the books but I only find make-up kits.

Same here but its supposed to be spelled Rikugun not Rikugen. I got both books for under $55 with shipping.

I remember somewhere else reading about a Japanese officer talking after the war about how he was in awe of the Americans ability to construct airfields so quickly. He spoke about the Japanese using manual labor to physically prepare the entire airfields which took long periods of time and was still poorly constructed when finished. American could construct fields within days with heavy machinery and the Marston Mat.

I look forward to reading these and learning more about theater. 2 things the Pacific war required the most were logistics and coordination between branches or other units in its own area.

 

[Wraith11B]

An average man works for around 600 dollars a day.

I'm sorry, but WHAT?! I know you live in Sweden and all, but I want to live where the average man works for around $600/day... that's $219k a year.

Also, that "West Point" you so neatly denigrated a few pages back? Yeah, that's the United States Military Academy at West Point. They've a pretty decent academic record, just saying.

 

[Loke]

I'm sorry, but WHAT?! I know you live in Sweden and all, but I want to live where the average man works for around $600/day... that's $219k a year.

Hmm... I thought - oh well as a government employee my salary really sux but this... hehe...

 

[Sir Garnet]

I'm glad this thread generated an outpouring of useful information. My apologies for the title typo in "Rikugun" - corrected up top. (Hi-res on a small screen is fertile ground for typos.)

While in the US and other countries general instruction in history seems to be cut back in favor of "relevant" material, for Japan the details of the unpleasantness of 1931-1945 would be better forgotten as it is not only extremely awkward internally but a burning political and diplomatic issue used to advantage most notably by the PRC.

An "official" Japanese history of the war offers no benefits and presents multiple downsides for Japan and its government, including the Imperial Family. As for "unofficial" histories and translations, they need not make comment.

 

[Grallak]

I'm glad this thread generated an outpouring of useful information. My apologies for the title typo in "Rikugun" - corrected up top. (Hi-res on a small screen is fertile ground for typos.)

While in the US and other countries general instruction in history seems to be cut back in favor of "relevant" material, for Japan the details of the unpleasantness of 1931-1945 would be better forgotten as it is not only extremely awkward internally but a burning political and diplomatic issue used to advantage most notably by the PRC.

An "official" Japanese history of the war offers no benefits and presents multiple downsides for Japan and its government, including the Imperial Family. As for "unofficial" histories and translations, they need not make comment.

^
If anyone is to blame for lack of translations, it's the US, but yeah, since it only leads to internal strife and reveals the sheer beaurucratical mischief and more, it has little relevance for anyone but historians.

Also 600 dollars a day isn't THAT much. . . But I guess it's more than most people make in other countries ;P And that is for an actual job, not translating lol.