Some questions regarding vassals / revolts and game mechanics

[IVIaarten]

Hello all,

I have some questions regarding vassal management (especially related to the new faction rebellions). I realize the game has changed quite a bit with the last DLC and patch, and that I most likely will have to change some of my previously employed tactics. But I'm having trouble getting to grips with it all.

Firstly some background (you can skip over this (in italic) and head straight to the questions below (note, I'm playing with the latest patch, but without the latest DLC (so no standing armies)).

background

Since I'm originally from that region, I decided to start of in 1066 as the count of Friesland (and Braunschweich) of house Brunonen. My aim was to create at least what is now known as the kingdom of the Netherlands, and get independence from the HRE. I was off to a good start, grabbing quite some lands within the HRE, and having some mayor conflicts with some of the other dukes in the area. Some of these quite overpowered me, but with the help of some hirelings and some backstabbing I got through it. After I managed to get hold of the kingdom of Lotharingia I went for independence, since the HRE was caught up in some other warlike engagements as well. It took quite some time, but again, I was successful.
I then found out the Kingdom of Frisia was in the game. I made sure my branch of the family became Dutch and secured that title as well. Ofcourse the HRE emperor wasn't happy with the situation (especially since he held claims on my lands) and regardless of my councils best efforts he decided to get me back into his happy empire. Obviously I couldn't face him directly with him not being distracted elsewhere so I had to employ some heavy backstabbing/plotting to get rid of him and his next successor (who inherited the war). So, 2 HRE emperors later the war was over (him on 90% warscore before I managed to kill him) and the next emperor didn't hold any direct claims.

Since I had basically met my goals, I decided to see how far I could take this country. I started to kick some Sunni behind in the Iberian peninsula, since the Castille/Leon combo in the south wasn't doing too well. I created a buffer between them and the Islamic nations further south, so they had the opportunity to consolidate and mop up the leftover provinces/duchies left there. I managed to grab the kingdom of Ireland as well by pressing some claims for my wife. I also wanted to get rid of elective succession, so I got my crown authority up to high and managed to change the laws, so that my firstborn son could inherit all three of the monarchies. I created the kingdom of Portugal a bit later. Roughly this is the situation I had around 1215-ish (the screenshot is from 1221, after the situation I'm about to describe).

Until now I've been used to keeping my vassals as powerless as possible, by making sure that I redistributed the titles so that none of them held more than a single county, and all were my direct vassals. I've had some good results from this in the past.

Now of course with the latest patch, a whole lot of these single county counts decided to create a faction together to gain independence from me, and after my previous king died it didn't take long for them to start their revolt. Now I'm not entirely sure how the mechanics behind their decision making goes, but most of the counts who were going for independence were right next to either;
a) the HRE emperor (who was ofcourse still itching to get those holdings back)
b) wedged between a revived Castille looking to expand on their north, and some Islamic rulers wanting their old holdings back on their the south
I don't see any way how a single independent Count thinks he can stay independent for long in this situation, and that they are more than likely safer in my loving care, but hey.... who can tell.

In the end the war lasted a couple of years, and I managed (with great pains) to get them back in line without loosing more than 2 or 3 counties (1 to Castille, and 1 or 2 to the HRE). The main plotter finally offered me a white peace when I got to 5% warscore, but I think it was more of them getting tired of the war as well. Weirdest thing was that the large majority of the counts that rebelled actually liked me a WHOLE lot. Almost all of them were at +100 relations with me by the time I ended the revolt (I think due to the "stopped a large revolt" opinion modifier), but they were already really high when the revolt started (I used the option to take away holdings only on the last german vassals I had, I kept the Dutch ones, even though from a RP standpoint I wanted to behead the lot of them). The screenshot is from the end of the war.

So finally (sorry for a long winded post) here are my questions.

1) I assume that my playstyle of keeping my vassals as powerless as possible (so 1 county counts, direct vassals) makes it really hard to control everything, even though it looked like I had most of my vassals at high opinions once the revolt started. Is it now better/more optimal to get rid of most of my direct vassals, and finally start creating and handing out those Duke titles?
2) Since I'm new to this patch, what is the best way to effectively counter these factions? I'm trying as hard as I can to keep opinions high, but with a ruler change they start off relatively low. Do they even leave factions when their opinion of you increases beyond a certain point, or are they part of the faction forever once they join it? Are there other ways I can change their minds (with council members maybe)? Or is the only way to work on the faction leader?

Just to reiterate, I'm playing with the latest patch, but without the latest DLC (so no standing armies for me).

 

[Hootieleece]

See my thread about factions......easiest way to do it would be to destroy the extra Kingdom titles and then creates the Duchy's and hand them out.makes sure that none of the dukes has more than one county inside of De jure Duchy.(thus keeping them weak)

Reason is that 10 Dukes are easier to control than 20 Counts.Also only Direct vassals can create factions so any counts should be answering to their De jure Duke.

After doing that it comes down to watching AI marriages and plots like a hawk.

 

[Dragnar]

1) I assume that my playstyle of keeping my vassals as powerless as possible (so 1 county counts, direct vassals) makes it really hard to control everything, even though it looked like I had most of my vassals at high opinions once the revolt started. Is it now better/more optimal to get rid of most of my direct vassals, and finally start creating and handing out those Duke titles?

That's basically the intended point of the change, yes. Before, it was trivially easy to rule an arbitrarily large realm by keeping your vassals small and then just whacking them down one by one if they decided to revolt. With the faction mechanic, it's very, very difficult to keep everyone in line without handing out the duke / king titles and if enough people get angry, they all revolt in unison.
Empires above a certain size are actually a challenge to keep together even if you're handing out kingships and kissing up to your powerful underlings, which is also intended, as ruling most of the map was again way too easy before.

2) Since I'm new to this patch, what is the best way to effectively counter these factions? I'm trying as hard as I can to keep opinions high, but with a ruler change they start off relatively low. Do they even leave factions when their opinion of you increases beyond a certain point, or are they part of the faction forever once they join it? Are there other ways I can change their minds (with council members maybe)? Or is the only way to work on the faction leader?

High relations are good (vassals will eventually leave a faction if their opinion of you is higher than 80 and are less likely to seek trouble if they like you more than the faction leader). Using your chancellor to improve relations can help, as does handing out honorary titles and money.
The main tool is your spymaster, though, as the "scheme" job has a high chance of getting people out of factions.
As your spymaster as well as titles can only go towards one vassal at a time, it's more effective to have a small number of more powerful vassals than uncoubtably many tiny ones.
Imprisoning the faction leader is a last ditch emergency effort, if you fear a dangerous faction is reaching the tipping point before you can do anything about it. Leading a faction is not cause for imprisonment, so you'll eat the tyranny modifier. It may still be better than letting them raise in open revolt, though.

 

[whosthebestcop]

I agree you only need 1 de jure kingdom title. Destroy the other ones when you win them or just don't create them if you plan on studying king level and not an emperor.

If you are a king you want all your vassals to be dukes. Except for your demesne where you will have mayors, bishops, barons.

If vassals are +80 they can't create a faction. You will sometimes see vassals +100 join a faction because the faction leader used his spymaster scheme mission to force that vassal to join.

Extra kingdom titles gives a little meaningless monthly prestige but over all destabilizes your realm. And has the biggest potential for creating negative vassal opinion modifiers.

Plus 1 de jure kingdom title use elective you get +20 vassal opinion for non dynasty vassals.

 

[Melric]

Others know more than I do, but my number one mechanism for controlling my vassals is to make sure that I am breeding leaders with high diplomacy. This enables me to gift vassals and receive a much larger relation boost. There is a thread on this forum where a developer mentions what triggers an actual revolt (above 33%? faction power). I have also notice that if you get relations over 75 for members of the faction, they drop out of the faction - which is why diplomacy is so important. The latest DLC makes it much easier to handle. With the standing armies, you have no need of your vassal armies so you can 1) change the laws to maximize relations and 2) convert all your counties to bishoprics (these are easier to get relation boosts from). Changing your makeup into duchies and/or kingdoms means fewer factions, but each faction member has more power and costs more to gift.

 

[IVIaarten]

That's basically the intended point of the change, yes. Before, it was trivially easy to rule an arbitrarily large realm by keeping your vassals small and then just whacking them down one by one if they decided to revolt. With the faction mechanic, it's very, very difficult to keep everyone in line without handing out the duke / king titles and if enough people get angry, they all revolt in unison.
Empires above a certain size are actually a challenge to keep together even if you're handing out kingships and kissing up to your powerful underlings, which is also intended, as ruling most of the map was again way too easy before.

Pretty much as I thought then. A welcome change I think. Although I still don't like the reasoning of the little counts thinking they can make it as independents squashed between Islamic rulers and a greedy Castille, or right next to a possibly even greedier HRE emperor

High relations are good (vassals will eventually leave a faction if their opinion of you is higher than 80 and are less likely to seek trouble if they like you more than the faction leader). Using your chancellor to improve relations can help, as does handing out honorary titles and money.
The main tool is your spymaster, though, as the "scheme" job has a high chance of getting people out of factions.
As your spymaster as well as titles can only go towards one vassal at a time, it's more effective to have a small number of more powerful vassals than uncoubtably many tiny ones.
Imprisoning the faction leader is a last ditch emergency effort, if you fear a dangerous faction is reaching the tipping point before you can do anything about it. Leading a faction is not cause for imprisonment, so you'll eat the tyranny modifier. It may still be better than letting them raise in open revolt, though.

Good to know the 'breaking point' opinion wise (80).
About the scheming with the spymaster. Am I right in assuming that I will have to scheme in their home county? I usually keep my spymaster scheming in my own capital county to uncover most of the plotting in my realm.

I think I'm off to create a WHOLE BUNCH of Duchies now...

See my thread about factions......easiest way to do it would be to destroy the extra Kingdom titles and then creates the Duchy's and hand them out.makes sure that none of the dukes has more than one county inside of De jure Duchy.(thus keeping them weak)

Reason is that 10 Dukes are easier to control than 20 Counts.Also only Direct vassals can create factions so any counts should be answering to their De jure Duke.

After doing that it comes down to watching AI marriages and plots like a hawk.

About the kingdoms; why do I need to get rid of the surplus kingdom titles?
Also, if I take another route and hand them off to brothers, will I keep an alliance with them as long as my family controls them, or only as long as they're a direct relative? (RP reason is that I just wanted the kingdom of 'the Netherlands' to begin with. I don't mind handing over let's say Ireland to my brother, but I don't want to loose them as an ally one generation later).

 

[Dragnar]

About the scheming with the spymaster. Am I right in assuming that I will have to scheme in their home county? I usually keep my spymaster scheming in my own capital county to uncover most of the plotting in my realm.

Yes. Getting the spymaster out of your own capital is also the intended effect, as before pretty much everyone had him uncovering plots there 24/7. Now, plotting is actually more interesting and effective, as the ruler is more susceptible with his own spymaster away to keep factions in check.

About the kingdoms; why do I need to get rid of the surplus kingdom titles?

If you're a multiking, every duke in the dejure realm of your secondary kingdoms wants the crown for himself. The King of the Netherlands and Ireland would have a negative opinion modifier with every irish vassal for "desiring the crown of Ireland".
For some unfathomable reason, that modifier vanishes if the title doesn't exist anymore, even if none of the vassals can recreate it. So they're actually more happy with being told that none of them will ever be king of Ireland than with none of them getting the crown yet.
It makes no real sense, but means that you're actually punished for keeping the crown of another kingdom around and optimal play as a king of multiple kingdoms is to destroy all but one kingdom title.

 

[IVIaarten]

Ouch... I'm not looking forward to having to destroy the kingdoms... the opinion hits will be huge.. maybe with my now old ruler, he's bound to pass away sooner or later. Especially the Lotharingia title will create a LOT of problems I think.

How about my second option... If I give the kingdom of Ireland to a brother, will I loose the alliance 1 generation later, or will I get to keep it as long as my family is in power there?

quick edit:
That strategy sort of lines up with the aim of this game I think; spreading your dynasty all over the map (well, as long as you're not too concerned with painting the whole map your colour that is ).

 

[Hootieleece]

@IVIaarten

Giving your brothers(dynastic) the surplus Kingdom titles would work and you would have them as allies,BUT only do this if you either have enough land in your personal desmesne in each Kingdom's De Jure area to give them a good powerbase to cow the Dukes(minimum 3-4 county's) because otherwise they will lose the first faction war they face and no longer be your ally.

Lotharingia you will probably have to fight HRE to a win to keep your Brother on Throne.(Because King's can't be peacefully vassalized)

 

[IVIaarten]

ah yes, thanks for the tip. I think I currently only own 1 county in the dejure kingdom of Ireland. Guess I'll have to clean house a bit over there before I hand over the title (should be fun).

Also, I think I'll just destroy the title of kingdom of Lotharingia entirely when I think my current king is about to kick the bucket... should also remove 1 -25 penalty from the HRE emperor at least (he's at a steady -50 base now because he desires both Frisia and Lotharingia).
Is it correct that any Dukes I leave within the dejure of Lotharingia can't re-create the kingdom (since that would put them on equal title-level with me)?

 

[whosthebestcop]

Only de jure vassals of the title get the penalty. So kingdom title destroyed only dukes are effected. A duke title destroyed only counts are effected.

So if you destroy Kingdom of Ireland every Duke will get a -50. Just gift them. That should get them at least +50 and it will neutralize the penalty of destroying the title. Releasing prisoners is a +10 to all vassals. Plus when you destroy it you get rid of modifiers such as desires kingdom xxx or if a duke ends up being a duke in 2 kingdoms of yours then he will suffer double crown law penalties. So that would be removed as well.

If you are a king none of your vassals can create a king title. Only if you become emperor can they create king title. So if you are a king it is better to only have 1 de jure title. That is all that is needed. If someone wants to roleplay or have a certain game type they might create more then 1 de jure kingdom title. But it is certainly not needed if your goal is a stable realm.

 

[IVIaarten]

and thanks again

I should be able to get rid of the kingdom of Lotharingia pretty easily then, since I've not deliberately created Ducal titles at all. I've only passed off 2 Ducal titles I held myself to get rid of the 'too many held duchies' penalty.

Another question though... Since I'll be creating a load of Ducal titles, should I be setting my feudal taxation higher? (I've set it to 0 seeing that I had more than enough money coming in. I'm currently running high crown authority in all kingdoms (which I had to get to change the succession laws), and I sort of like it like that.
What are good settings for taxes/levies for:
- feudal vassals
- cities
- churches
I'm sure that since I'll be having all Dukes as direct vassals (apart from my own holdings) I need to set the tax for them at least to something. But can I set the levies to minimum since I get plenty of levies from the high crown authority?

 

[IVIaarten]

hmmzzz... there MUST be something I'm missing.

With the advice from this thread I decided to create a Ducal title, since money was lacking a bit, I started out with the Duchy of Tlemcen (since one of the countesses there was leading the independence faction). I created the Duchy, gave it to one of the 4 counts there (so not to the countess who was leading the faction). I thought it worked, since the faction immediately disappeared.

Here's the problem though; within LESS THAN A DAY, the newly promoted Duke starts an independence faction of his own, with his opinion of me at +99.

What gives?

 

[Hootieleece]

The problem is the De Jure......the Duchy of Tlemcen is not De Jure part of your Primary title.Thus Duke there wants independence so he can become a King of his own.....Mauretainia.Also think that the Distance peanalties of older patches might be cropping up also.

 

[IVIaarten]

But he started it on +99 opinion... actually, he STILL is at +99 opinion. He loves me so much he would want to have my babies if he had the squishy parts required for that.... Earlier I was told that people will leave a faction when they get over +80 opinion.

How am I going to manage these Dukes with things like gifts etc when it's impossible to go over +100 opinion? And moreover, how is it logical/required for gameplay reason to have anyone with such a high opinion of you starting a faction against you?

 

[Dragnar]

But he started it on +99 opinion... earlier I was told that people will leave a faction when they get over +80 opinion...

They do. Leave other people's factions, that is.
But non-de jure kings and dukes will almost always create independence factions for themselves, regardless of opinion.
As long as people like you, they'll never get much support and they'll never support anyone else's independence, though.

 

[IVIaarten]

So, let me get this straight...

a) The whole 'create Dukes to have a more stable and easier to manage realm' only goes for the lands within your de jure titles. For everything else it's still preferable to have as many powerless vassals as possible (as long as you can manage all of their opinions)?

b) This would mean that I'd have to keep all of the counts powerless in my holdings in the Iberian peninsula, or is there still a reason to create a bunch of Dukes there (outside of my de jure kingdom titles).

c) Would it help if I created more kingdom titles so even though the Dukes would get the 'desires the kingdom of x' negative modifier, they would be less likely to want to declare independence since they're in the de jure holdings of my extra kingdom? This counters what I've been told earlier that all you ever want/need is a single Kingdom?

edit:

or maybe is the correct explanation/way to go

d) Still create all the Ducal titles, even when they're all outside of your de jure kingdom. They'll all start independence factions of their own, but none of them will get the support needed to start it if you keep all your Dukes happy?

 

[Yxklyx]

But he started it on +99 opinion... actually, he STILL is at +99 opinion. He loves me so much he would want to have my babies if he had the squishy parts required for that.... Earlier I was told that people will leave a faction when they get over +80 opinion.

How am I going to manage these Dukes with things like gifts etc when it's impossible to go over +100 opinion? And moreover, how is it logical/required for gameplay reason to have anyone with such a high opinion of you starting a faction against you?

I don't think the +80 is set in stone as spymasters can scheme such vassals into factions from what I've read.

 

[Hootieleece]

The best thing would be to Create an Iberian Kingdom and give it to a Family member or hand off Frisia move your base to Iberia.If you want a stable realm.

 

[IVIaarten]

The best thing would be to Create an Iberian Kingdom and give it to a Family member or hand off Frisia move your base to Iberia.If you want a stable realm.

Only kingdoms available there for me at the moment are the kingdoms of Portugal (which I already own) and Gallicia. Both of them only cover the west coast. So basically I'd have to keep conquering until I can create a bigger one then.

What would be my best bet in the meantime though.. keep a load of relatively powerless counts there, or create a bunch of Dukes that will all created their own independence factions but will not support each other so none of them actually gets to revolt if managed correctly?

again, thanks all for taking the time answering my questions. This new faction system really changes the game and I'm still getting to grips with it all