Some questions about Russian colonisation of Siberia & Kazan

[pgroves]

Hi, although a long-time player of EU2, I've only recently tried playing Muscovy/Russia (VH/Weakling under AGCEEP 1.57beta12 Deluxe) and have found to my delight it to be an extremely fun country to play...

Anyway, I have a number of questions for veteran players of Russia and thought I would start with one on Russian colonisation of Siberia and related topics...


1) What conditions have to be met to start colonising the Siberian corridor (assuming starting from Igrim)? Assume I have used the Conquistador I get in 1495 to discover Igrim and the rest of the corridor, either via an owned Kazan or a vassalised/MA Kazan

a) Do I have to own Sergino (Sibir) or can I start placing Trading Posts/Colonists if I own just Kazan (which connects to Igrim via straits, I think)? I assume I do at least have to own one of these two? If I own Sergino, can I place Trading/Posts colonists without owning Kazan?

b) Am I correct in thinking I can try to place a colony next to just a Trading Post in the Siberian corridor, unlike elsewhere, where I would have to have an adjacent colony first? It would be a waste to use anything but trading posts in most the Base Tax value 1 provinces, I think.

2) Assuming I need to own Kazan to be able to start colonising the Siberian corridor, as far as I can see it there are at least three possible approaches to taking Kazan province (ideally without lumbering myself early on with lots of other Sunni provinces...):

a) DoW the Golden Horde before Kazan splits off from it, assuming I win the war with GH, would then just take Kazan province and any exisiting Orthodox provinces I can get and hopefully also be able to force vassalise GH. However, Muscovy is weak early on, so am not sure how feasible this is and I also don't like making DoW without a CB if I can avoid it... If following this course of action, would presumably be best (assuming they don't DoW me first, as they will have a CB) to DoW GH after selecting option B "Throw off the Tartar Yoke" in the March 1425 event 233000 Tribute to the Golden horde before Kazan forms (which is 1436, I think). NB: does Crimea split off from GH before or after Kazan forms? Would obvioulsy be best to fight a weakend Gh if possible

b) Wait until the 2 province early Kazan forms and the April 1445 event 40005 "Vasili II has been captured by Tartars" occurs. Would the get a 4 year CB against Kazan. Would then DoW Kazan and take Tambov from them and some cash in the first war, would then have to DoW them again asap (presumably after the truce, so unfortunately after the free CB expires) and force annex (something I try to avoid, where possible) the one province Kazan. This option has the downside of high badboy and v.bad relations with Sunni neighnours...

c) Wait until GH collapses (not sure when this is) and Kazan expands from two provinces, to many more before DoW Kazan quite late, e.g. 1485, so that I can make best use of my conquistador in 1495. Muscovy would be stronger by this point, but so would Kazan and in order to eventually take Kazan province would have to aquire lots of Sunni provinces first, leading to poor stability recovering, unless I can convert them quickly (which I guess would ideally require having narrowmindedness value of 2 for the religious conversion random events and extra missionaries - not ideal as was hoping to pursue a strategy of early high innovativeness, 7 or 9, to get some free random manufacturies and better tech costs...)

Any other posibilities? I'm thinking option a) or b) would be best at the moment, especially if following a high innovativeness approach early on in the game...

Thanks

Paul

 

[Mats_SX]

Doing high Inno is hard as Russia. You will need to have a steady flow of Missionaries when you start eating the Golden Horde, whenever you want to do this (I normally start ASAP I get the cores, after 1500). To colonize the Ural corridor, you need to own Kazan. Usually, you'll have to force-annex them to get it, because beating the GH before you get your cores might be badboyish.

Yes, you can make colonies in line after a TP, as the whole area is capital-connected. For annexation of Sibir by event, the following must be fulfilled:

Sibir owns Jalutorovsk.
You control Jalutorovsk.
The year is after 1580.

But long before this, you can attack them to take cores you get on them, BB free (well, 1 for dow).

For conversions, you need not rely on random events. Just make sure you have missionaries. The major part of all the provinces you'll have to convert are <5000 pop, thus making conversion costs less than 30 ducats.

 

[pgroves]

Doing high Inno is hard as Russia. You will need to have a steady flow of Missionaries when you start eating the Golden Horde, whenever you want to do this (I normally start ASAP I get the cores, after 1500).

You could have a point there...

To colonize the Ural corridor, you need to own Kazan. Usually, you'll have to force-annex them to get it, because beating the GH before you get your cores might be badboyish.

Not necessarily, as Russia gets a RM with GH initially so I guess I could claim their crown to get a CB (though would mean having to DoW b4 the first "Tribute to Golden Horde" event). Also, wouldn't be that much badboy if Kazan was the only (or one of the only) provinces I took... The real challenge is whether I would be powerful enough to get a high enough warscore from the GH to be able to claim Kazan without losing a stupid number of troops and/or getting DoW by Lithuania/Poland in the the meantime...

Yes, you can make colonies in line after a TP, as the whole area is capital-connected.

Cool

For annexation of Sibir by event, the following must be fulfilled:

Sibir owns Jalutorovsk.
You control Jalutorovsk.
The year is after 1580.

But long before this, you can attack them to take cores you get on them, BB free (well, 1 for dow).

Okay, thanks for the info.

For conversions, you need not rely on random events. Just make sure you have missionaries. The major part of all the provinces you'll have to convert are <5000 pop, thus making conversion costs less than 30 ducats.

Okay, cool, so I don't necessarily need ultra-low narrowmindedness, as long as I'm getting a reasonable number of missionaries each year...

 

[unmerged(15247)]

expanding in the muslim countries before 1550's is wrong (in SP, of course mp would be diffrent). high inno for forst 150 years or so is more the necessarry ( as well as stay relativelly small) IF u intend to dominate tech after 1600's when russian expansion is more effective(+ extra cores, etc).

about kazan. option "a" is always mist desired, BUT the reality is that can not be applied effectivelly unless loosing on economic progression( golden horde uses mostlly cavalery armies and until the kazan break up is the most difficult neighbour to beat, more then any others). of course they CAN be beaten but i am talking about how much inflation/pillage/mayhem you willing to put up with and neglecting constant land investment.

as a general rule i would NEVER adventure in the east until LT 9( becouse then , at LEAST i can make very effective, quick wars and start converting rightaway, even before promoting balifs wich are not even worth for 1-2 base tax unconverted provinces).

no NEED to rely on events for conversions; there are TWO "strategically" placed high administrative value monarchs(around 1500's and 1590). they can attempt convert a province even within 3 years( makes GREAT diffrence overall economic progression). no need to leave things to "chance" when it comes to such matter...
having 0.20 or 060 missionaries/year is more then enough for what i need.( keeping account of when you receicve the good monarch so you can juggle the inno slider in their anticipation of course).

the mongolian provinces convert by events post 1600's no need to convert them just do not get them TOO earlly of course...

 

[Mats_SX]

the mongolian provinces convert by events post 1600's no need to convert them just do not get them TOO earlly of course...

That's only for AI, isn't it? The player has to convert himself, and then he'll get Russian culture if he do.

 

[unmerged(40707)]

That's only for AI, isn't it? The player has to convert himself, and then he'll get Russian culture if he do.

Yes but some Mongolian provinces will not get Russian culture by event...

 

[unmerged(15247)]

Yes but some Mongolian provinces will not get Russian culture by event...

errr...yoda this is confusing.....i got mass conversion by event upon complete annexations of mongol states...i did NOT convert any manually( can not remember the exact setting.

 

[unmerged(40707)]

Are you sure?

Impossible according to trigger of Mongols Assimilation events in AGCEEP_RussiaInMongolia.eue.
Only AI can have mass conversion and culture change. A player must convert first. And Depopulation events must fire before (except for Irkustk).

Example for Angara:

	trigger = {
		event = 338900
		owned = { province = 590 data = RUS } #Angara
		OR = {
			ai = yes
			AND = {
				ai = no
				provincereligion = { province = 590 data = orthodox } #Angara
			}
		}
	}

Do you still have a save file of this game with Russia?

 

[unmerged(15247)]

Are you sure?

Impossible according to trigger of Mongols Assimilation events in AGCEEP_RussiaInMongolia.eue.
Only AI can have mass conversion and culture change. A player must convert first. And Depopulation events must fire before (except for Irkustk).

Example for Angara:

	trigger = {
		event = 338900
		owned = { province = 590 data = RUS } #Angara
		OR = {
			ai = yes
			AND = {
				ai = no
				provincereligion = { province = 590 data = orthodox } #Angara
			}
		}
	}

Do you still have a save file of this game with Russia?

sorry, only recentlly i started "documanting" games(aar), before any new agceep version would erase ALL previous saves and autosaves . i do remember that i waited for the mongol split in 2 states; the western ones converts by event and the eastern one becomes buddhist(right?). the budhist one had massive orthodox conversion after i INHERITED it( while at war and i think i had to accupy all his provinces).

regardless, maybe i "missed" something. or this was not as such in previous versions?( not too far back, 6-7 months i would say)

 

[unmerged(40707)]

sorry, only recentlly i started "documanting" games(aar), before any new agceep version would erase ALL previous saves and autosaves . i do remember that i waited for the mongol split in 2 states; the western ones converts by event and the eastern one becomes buddhist(right?). the budhist one had massive orthodox conversion after i INHERITED it( while at war and i think i had to accupy all his provinces).

regardless, maybe i "missed" something. or this was not as such in previous versions?( not too far back, 6-7 months i would say)

Not exactly, Mongolia turns to Buddhism and Buriats are Orthodox as Russian allies. This is rather strange. You can't inherit Mongolia as Russia, only Buriats. But maybe Buriats had already converted some provinces to the Orthodox faith and Culture events fired soon after you inherited them.


Do you know you can keep your old save files before installing a new AGCEEP version? This is clearly stated in Installation instruction on the website. Just copy them from AGCEEP/Scenarios/Save games to another location before changing version.

Changes made for Mongols assimilation are way more ancient than 6-7 months. I don't even remember when I modified them for the last time (I wasn't the author but I made the last changes).

 

[Mats_SX]

Do you know you can keep your old save files before installing a new AGCEEP version? This is clearly stated in Installation instruction on the website. Just copy them from AGCEEP/Scenarios/Save games to another location before changing version.

But I thought saves from old versions were not compatible with new versions.

 

[unmerged(40707)]

But I thought saves from old versions were not compatible with new versions.

Yes, but you can backup save files instead of seeing them destroyed and some people keep track of all versions.