Some questions about China and Japan (Mandate of Heaven)

[Heindrich]

1. Regarding mandate gain/loss, to quote the wiki: "-0.3 per 100 development of neighboring non-tributaries (not counting the provinces that are oversea for Emperor of China)."
   • Does this include sea border? for example if I held a province sharing a sea zone with a Japanese daimyo, would that incur a mandate penalty?
   • Does the length of border matter at all? for example say the Spanish Empire settled next to my province, will I suffer a mandate penalty scaled by the total development of Spain?!
2. The Celestial Reforms seem to incur a heavy cost for fairly minor bonuses. Am I missing something but it doesn't seem to be worth making an effort to enact these reforms.
3. Before Mandate of Heaven, it was a nightmare to mess with Japan before it consolidated due to buggy daimyo behaviour that made no sense... has this been fixed at all? Is it possible to support Daimyo independence, and perhaps conquer Japan by "divide and rule"? Attacking Ashikaga directly in the early game seems unwise, given that it seems to trigger his entire vassal swarm.
4. I've seem multiple posts complaining about how Confucian subjects don't harmonize... how bad is this? Is it not worth having colonial nations as Ming/Korea?

 

[makaramus]

no coastal borders doesnt count land itself must touch to borders of emperor
second question is diffrent

you only suffer amount of devolpment land your neighbor has that connected to each other

lets say you are bordering with spain as said... if spain got 1000 dev but he is bordering you via land that has 50 dev connection you suffer only 50 dev part not remaining 950

celestial reforms are good . those bonuses not small as they seem

japan vassals are now better and outside powers cannot support their indepandence

last one not someting I heard usually ming is prefering harmonizing but no matter what its worth to colonize new world even if your subjects decide to convert stuff . in worst case colonize west coast of america

 

[Heindrich]

Oh a related question... Do bordering allies count towards mandate at all? I assume they confer no bonus given that they are not subjects, but do they incur a penalty? If they do, then Ming cannot really ally anyone actually bordering them...

 

[makaramus]

Oh a related question... Do bordering allies count towards mandate at all? I assume they confer no bonus given that they are not subjects, but do they incur a penalty? If they do, then Ming cannot really ally anyone actually bordering them...

yea they incur a penalty sadly ^_^
chineese people were weird... once great britain(or someting like that? not sure who did ) gave them gift to show their good will for trade... qing (emperor of that time) took it as a tribute althought briatin insisted it wasnt

"ITS A GIFT"
"I taking your payment for peacefull trade"
"ITS A GIIIIIIIIIIIIIFT!!!"

 

[Glacierfairy]

I can offer some answers based on my experience playing as Ming:

1. As mentioned, sea borders do not count for mandate maintenance. However, if you share a land border with a giant blob, no matter how small the border is (could be just one province), it can tank your mandate very quickly unless you subjugate that blob into a tributary. Also, land borders of other countries with your colonial nations does not count for mandate maintenance, so you don't need to worry about them.

2. The bonuses are relatively minor, but then again they are also not very difficult to pass (it gets easier over time too, once you completely surround yourself with tributaries and have all your states experiencing prosperity). That said, with the increased costs as per patch 1.23, I recommend to pass them only when you have 100 mandate.

3. I have yet to play as Japan post-Mandate of Heaven, so I'm afraid I cannot offer much advice for them. The shogun would still defend his daimyos from foreign invasion though, as far as I can tell.

4. Confucian subjects are very annoying to say the least. They rarely harmonise, and if they do they never accept wrong cultures. The only reason to keep a Confucian vassal if you want to feed it territories is to let them core the provinces for you (ie, the same as any other vassals). But you will have to manually convert the provinces for them, which kinds of defeats the purpose of having them.