Some of the Alt-history paths should have been done better

[N3UTR0N]

Just my opinion, but I think some of the paths are a little bit way too impossible to make an actual valid alt-history game. While I initialy always wanted to see alt-history outcomes in the game, It's being done not in the way that I wanted it be done.

I think Germany and Japan are great examples. I dont think that in 1936, there is enough supporters to start a Communist/Democratic civil war to overthrow hirohito, I think this is just an impossible scenario for it to occur, especialy when Hirohito himself was a very dictatorial emperor and he would stop any attempts of starting a civil war against him. The same story is pretty much with Germany, Hitler was a very rough dictator, and usualy any opposition that would attempt at starting a civil war would be eliminated, so I dont think scenarios like "oppose hitler" should be possible, especialy when most of the oppositions we're already eliminated almost before even Hitler become the Dictator of Germany with his NSDAP political party.

Japan should just have 2 different paths to take. By default Japan should be Non-Alighted, instead of a Fascist, the first focus tree branch should be the Historical Non-alighted branch, where it follows the historical sets, and the secodary branch should focus on Goverment reforms, to focus more on Extreme Nationalist, and more cooperation with Germany or other Fascist alighted Nation.

Germany should have a Branch where one of the Governement presentatives of NSDAP (Like Rommel), would be able to stage a coup, like assasination hitler in early-mid game, and from there you can make Goverment reforms, either go for an more nationalist version of the old German Empire or Constitutional Monarchy, like UK but still have slightly "Fascist" flavor to it, since it succeded from a fascist regime. Those paths should be realistic, there shoudn't be focuses like Forming alliance (like in the Democratic Germany path) and making almost the entirety of europe join it, which is kinda overpowered.

 

[Zeprion]

There are lots of type of players with lots of type of preferences. Some are mostly for the game mechanics while others for flavor and historical accuracy. Some want more game balance others want more options. Some want a World War II path as realistic as possible while other want as many alt-history paths as possible. While all of them can be done, they can't all be done at the same time.

You are right that it's very unrealistic but there are more impossible things in Hearts of Iron 4 than that. It's not even top tier level of impossible. Personally, as long as the alt-history path is possible (looking at many formable nations such as the Roman Empire) and makes sense (looking at UK's focus to invade democratic Netherlands) I'm okay with it. I understand that not all alt-history is going to be realistic, but there needs to be a bar of realism to keep immersion. Kind of impossible to have an alt-history story when that story makes no sense.

In spire of that, I would label Japan and Germany's civil war revolutions as fitting. They are very unrealistic but not impossible and make sense, it's not like the whole country wanted fascism. There was a plot against Hitler that could have fired if he wouldn't have been considered a hero after taking Sudetenland through peaceful means, his power wasn't as entrenched as you seem to believe. I don't know about Japan and considering the Emperor's prestige a civil war would have been harder, but it's a good way to switch power from an absolute dictatorship, very unrealistic, but not impossible and has a reasoning behind it, therefore not immersion breaking.

 

[Dlin369]

For what they are Oppose Hitler and Democratic Civil war for Japan are on the decent side of HOI4 alt history paths. HOI4 tries to have all majors being able to go 4 ways because it allows for a "reshuffling of the deck" that allows for more combinations of WW2

Hitler in 1936 had just consolidated power over the last few years and eliminated the SA in 1934 in order to appease the military/conservative elements. He hadn't yet had his string of initial foreign policy successes that helped his image of "restoring Germany" like Rhineland, Anschluss, and Munich Agreement. Remilitarizing the Rhineland was a big risk and a coup in my opinion is plausible even if not likely. Personally I would've written the event chain so France and UK AI stand up to Germany automatically for Oppose Hitler and an Oster-Conspiracy-esque assasination throws Germany into chaos.

The Democratic Civil War is again not very likely but at least internally justified. Japan did have a Democratic (if significantly fading) government in 1936. The game forces you to fight a difficult civil war (called a preemptive coup) in order to survive. The way I would rewrite it is to have the February 26 Incident (Kohoda coup) be an inevitable event that you can influence its success or failure the first focus of the Japan tree. Through event chain you can alter who comes out on top, cumulating with the Emperor making a decision between the military (initially non-aligned, can go fascist), Kohoda (fascist but can go non-aligned), Democratic institutions (Democracy) or do nothing which will cause a civil war. If there is a civil war, depending on events there should be a chance for a small communist revolt that you can lead. I really do not think Communist Japan is feasible/plausible honestly, but I guess weirder things have happened and HOI4 likes having all majors being able to go 4 ways

 

[TalyonUngol]

What counts as realistic and plausible isnt a finite thing. Everyone has different opinions about what's realistic and plausible. And even if there's a itsy teensy tiny bit of plausibility.... Then would that be okay or should it be highly plausible? Paradox ignores all that and goes for paths that improve gameplay and repeatability. Greece having a byzantine empire path makes no plausible or realistic sense but it adds a ton of gameplay fun. Plus it doesn't affect you if they get one path thats memes. As for Germany it would be cool to do a coup and put Himmler in charge and remain on the historical path. Just needs a national spirit and etc etc.

 

[goodcigar]

I think it big mistake to try make two different games in one. Better to make excellent detailed World War 2 game instead of mediocre two type game. Better to leave alternate history scenario to modding community. Trying to make two game in one cause way too many bug and problem all the time.

 

[N3UTR0N]

For what they are Oppose Hitler and Democratic Civil war for Japan are on the decent side of HOI4 alt history paths. HOI4 tries to have all majors being able to go 4 ways because it allows for a "reshuffling of the deck" that allows for more combinations of WW2

Hitler in 1936 had just consolidated power over the last few years and eliminated the SA in 1934 in order to appease the military/conservative elements. He hadn't yet had his string of initial foreign policy successes that helped his image of "restoring Germany" like Rhineland, Anschluss, and Munich Agreement. Remilitarizing the Rhineland was a big risk and a coup in my opinion is plausible even if not likely. Personally I would've written the event chain so France and UK AI stand up to Germany automatically for Oppose Hitler and an Oster-Conspiracy-esque assasination throws Germany into chaos.

The Democratic Civil War is again not very likely but at least internally justified. Japan did have a Democratic (if significantly fading) government in 1936. The game forces you to fight a difficult civil war (called a preemptive coup) in order to survive. The way I would rewrite it is to have the February 26 Incident (Kohoda coup) be an inevitable event that you can influence its success or failure the first focus of the Japan tree. Through event chain you can alter who comes out on top, cumulating with the Emperor making a decision between the military (initially non-aligned, can go fascist), Kohoda (fascist but can go non-aligned), Democratic institutions (Democracy) or do nothing which will cause a civil war. If there is a civil war, depending on events there should be a chance for a small communist revolt that you can lead. I really do not think Communist Japan is feasible/plausible honestly, but I guess weirder things have happened and HOI4 likes having all majors being able to go 4 ways

I have nothing against path that go to different ideologies, but it would be better if it is done slightly in a different ways rather than Civil Wars, I would prefer if it was more like Government coups.

 

[TalyonUngol]

I think it big mistake to try make two different games in one. Better to make excellent detailed World War 2 game instead of mediocre two type game. Better to leave alternate history scenario to modding community. Trying to make two game in one cause way too many bug and problem all the time.

You'll find that this game wouldn't have a very long development if that were the case. It's been clear that the community, in it's silent majority, wants alt history and the memes.

Most people who play, play alt history more as per the stats that Pdx has posted in the past. Historical ww2 games in the grand strategy don't have replayability. It's not a fps after all. If we made this ww2. You'd finish the game after let's say 20 games. You'd probably get your money's worth but youd have this game die out quick.

 

[General Waluigi]

If they're going to redo the alt-history paths, the US should also get a redo. For Starters, the fascist or communist policies (as a whole) were generally not held up by either of the major parties. One of the major alt history paths I'd like to see for the US is the Union Party, promoted by Charles Coughlin (who acts as the US Fascist Advisor). They could act initially as a non-aligned party as they had left-wing economic policies inspired by Huey Long's Share the wealth movement and some more right-wing social policies. The fascist path could spring off of here, as the Silver legion could be integrated into the military, and then potentially subvert the Union party as the leaders of the US.
Considering the Red Scare that occurred after the War, and that McCarthy can be placed in the player's cabinet, I would imagine that any communist path would require support from the Soviet Player to get the CPUSA off the ground. I'm not sure what they could really do to make a plausible communist path for the US, though I'm sure it would require a Civil War (potentially by the Red Scare being started a decade earlier by McCarthy).

 

[Tarroque]

I'm not sure what they could really do to make a plausible communist path for the US, though I'm sure it would require a Civil War (potentially by the Red Scare being started a decade earlier by McCarthy).

How about this:

-FDR arrested/assassinated by people convinced that the New Deal would lead to communism
-President Nance Garner focuses exclusively on the deficit and on immediate and harsh repression of economically distressed citizens/leftists who agitate for relief
-More 'Bonus Army' type crackdowns turning into public relations disasters
-1937 'recession within a recession' starts earlier and is more severe than historically
-Military further reduced in size to deal with the spiralling deficit
-Heavily disputed and inconclusive 1937 election results in President Garner given 2nd term by congress

And from there you could start the war in any number of ways, though I do hope Paradox would make the US civil war more like the Spanish one than the mess that the current US civil war is like.

 

[Crispin]

You'll find that this game wouldn't have a very long development if that were the case. It's been clear that the community, in it's silent majority, wants alt history and the memes.

Most people who play, play alt history more as per the stats that Pdx has posted in the past. Historical ww2 games in the grand strategy don't have replayability. It's not a fps after all. If we made this ww2. You'd finish the game after let's say 20 games. You'd probably get your money's worth but youd have this game die out quick.

I doubt it, mods would carry this game, like they have done with all other pdx titles.

 

[permanently_afk]

Just my opinion, but I think some of the paths are a little bit way too impossible to make an actual valid alt-history game. While I initialy always wanted to see alt-history outcomes in the game, It's being done not in the way that I wanted it be done.

I think Germany and Japan are great examples. I dont think that in 1936, there is enough supporters to start a Communist/Democratic civil war to overthrow hirohito, I think this is just an impossible scenario for it to occur, especialy when Hirohito himself was a very dictatorial emperor and he would stop any attempts of starting a civil war against him. The same story is pretty much with Germany, Hitler was a very rough dictator, and usualy any opposition that would attempt at starting a civil war would be eliminated, so I dont think scenarios like "oppose hitler" should be possible, especialy when most of the oppositions we're already eliminated almost before even Hitler become the Dictator of Germany with his NSDAP political party.

Japan should just have 2 different paths to take. By default Japan should be Non-Alighted, instead of a Fascist, the first focus tree branch should be the Historical Non-alighted branch, where it follows the historical sets, and the secodary branch should focus on Goverment reforms, to focus more on Extreme Nationalist, and more cooperation with Germany or other Fascist alighted Nation.

Germany should have a Branch where one of the Governement presentatives of NSDAP (Like Rommel), would be able to stage a coup, like assasination hitler in early-mid game, and from there you can make Goverment reforms, either go for an more nationalist version of the old German Empire or Constitutional Monarchy, like UK but still have slightly "Fascist" flavor to it, since it succeded from a fascist regime. Those paths should be realistic, there shoudn't be focuses like Forming alliance (like in the Democratic Germany path) and making almost the entirety of europe join it, which is kinda overpowered.

As I pointed out here, what exactly AH is and when it is plausible is subject to strong contention and very much a thing of bias of the individual. Your writing speaks of a bias towards "as OTL" and seem to buy into the picture of both Germany and Japan as monolithic blocks they both presented outwards and were later featured as in WAllied propaganda.
I can't speak of the japanese situation, but for the german one it is a bit of a stretch to believe Hitler was as secure in power in '36 as he was in '39 or '42 (since he lacked both the successes and the common foe). Also, point of order: Rommel wasn't NSDAP, he was army (naively so).

In 1936, Hitler had just offed the SA to appease the conservatives and the Nazis would not put in rationing until late into the war in order to keep the homefront quiet. Also things like Aktion T4 were ceased when they became public knowledge. None of that speaks of utterly secure power. And there were plans to depose Hitler if the Entente objected violently to Rhineland. Which fell through, because the Entente didn't even care to put some substance to their objection. Same for Sudetenland.
The game is quite correct in depicting the military couping, because even at the time Hitlers brinkmanship wasn't exactly popular. The immunity came after the Entente handed him the easy victories.
And once the ball gets rolling, the outcome is wide open. There is a reason the term "beefsteak-nazi" (brown on the outside, red on the inside) existed.
So yeah, there was plenty of opposition not-yet-purged in Germany. Or why do you think the Nazis were so keen on propaganda and secret police?

Edit: What do you think would happen if General Foch decided over his morning crossaint to inform (accompanied by starting to do so) the german generals that the french will mobilize if Rhineland is pressed?

 

[cotne22]

Edit: What do you think would happen if General Foch decided over his morning crossaint to inform (accompanied by starting to do so) the german generals that the french will mobilize if Rhineland is pressed?

Considering he was dead, I'm fairly sure that they would be a bit skeptical

 

[permanently_afk]

Considering he was dead, I'm fairly sure that they would be a bit skeptical

Got my dates mixed up. And Foch was the guy famous for the "20 years" line. Pick your choice of credible general officer in his place.

 

[Xerberous]

either go for an more nationalist version of the old German Empire or Constitutional Monarchy, like UK but still have slightly "Fascist" flavor to it, since it succeded from a fascist regime.

If you look at the planned cabinet of Beck/Goerdeler https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schattenkabinett_Beck/Goerdeler which should be put in power after the Oster conspiracy 1938 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oster_conspiracy you see a bunch of SPD people as designated ministers which is quite far away from "Fascist" flavor - so in my opinion things are fine as they are. I would even say that Germany is the only country where all alt-histories paths are at least "somehow acceptable" from the plausibility-viewpoint.

 

[TalyonUngol]

I doubt it, mods would carry this game, like they have done with all other pdx titles.

But you wouldn't get any more development. Mods cant introduce new mechanics((AFAIK)). Sure we can get new focus trees and such, but imagine the game back on release without any new mechancis? THAT's what you're asking for basically.

 

[Crispin]

I don't see how that's what I'm asking for at all. I was just pointing out the importance of mods, and how they have been crucial for paradox games since dawn. And not including alt history in updates wouldn't suddenly make the game dead is all. Probably just poorly worded by myself.

 

[TalyonUngol]

I don't see how that's what I'm asking for at all. I was just pointing out the importance of mods, and how they have been crucial for paradox games since dawn. And not including alt history in updates wouldn't suddenly make the game dead is all. Probably just poorly worded by myself.

I didn't mean you specifically. I was talking about the people who have a hard time adjusting to alt-history in the game. The ones who advocate for the realistic historical that the very loud minority keep asking for. If we went for hardcore realistic historical game, the game would not be getting updates as the sales would drop. Most people who play Hoi4 do not want a super historical game. Most realize that there is no replayability in these games because historical is railroaded to go one way. Allies win. Anything else is alt-history and you can't just select what alt-history you accept and not accept.

A little rant there but yeah. It wasn't you specifically I was talking about.

As for mods... Mods can only do so much. They cant include features that the base game doesn't include. Focus Trees and removal of features is one thing but htey cant -add- to them.

 

[GSP Jr]

We have been over this before people.
The minute you start the game it is alt-history.
It is a game.
It's never going to be a simulator or be "historically accurate"

 

[Vin55]

The Problem there is, that a minor trash nation lile portugal gets war goals against all fascist nations and triggers them, because he has no borders with them, stuff like that, or the fact that France is so slow in the political path, that they guarantee way too long the east, so sudentland is always blocked and even if he turns communist, he will join the allies stuff like that kills the alt history. They should B-line their political tree in alt history you often see France with a complete naval tree it hurts so bad.

Also those annoying Commonwealth allies should not guarantee outside of their continents. It makes 0 snese that canada or south-africa would defend lets say switzerland if Germany would knock on the door. The game is on so many small level broken. It makes it annoying, you also have the problem in Road56, the more nations get those alt focuses, the more broken it gets, Portugal was a whole lot of immersion breaking as ai.

They need to fix that, the ai if it changes idiology will do it faster so france by 38 has changed or stopped at least guaranteeing random nations, and that they will not attack someone obviously bigger than them or lock it behind a human player (e.g Portugal). Those would be small changes, whom everyone would benefit from.

 

[GrandVezir]

The Problem there is, that a minor trash nation lile portugal gets war goals against all fascist nations and triggers them, because he has no borders with them, stuff like that, or the fact that France is so slow in the political path, that they guarantee way too long the east, so sudentland is always blocked and even if he turns communist, he will join the allies stuff like that kills the alt history. They should B-line their political tree in alt history you often see France with a complete naval tree it hurts so bad.

But France did spend (in hindsight) absurd amounts of time and energy on their navy in the interwar period. Air force, too. They had some actual strat bombers in operation by 1940, for all the good it did them. And their government was a complete dog's breakfast that collapsed shortly* after Paris was captured.

*Just over a week later rather than midnight the day of, but it's reasonably close as such things go.