Some miscellaneous database corrections for the Normans

Sleight of Hand · Nov 11, 2012

I'll address both the de Normandie (752) and de Hauteville (678) families, but I'll start with the former in this post.

Okay, first of all William the Conqueror should definitely have the 'paranoid' trait -- he had many enemies and tried to assassinate a relatively huge number of people (often successfully); he could also be very cruel/harsh, but was also considered a just king in the sense that he upheld the law, rewarded the faithful and punished traitors. Perhaps surprisingly, however, he only executed a single Anglo-Saxon noble (Waltheof of Northumbria) and released most of his prisoners on his deathbed.

Code:

140 = {
	name="William"
	# AKA: William 'the Conqueror'
	dynasty=752
	dna="epdbiohgukk"
	properties="ae0000"
	martial=7
	diplomacy=7
	intrigue=10
	stewardship=6
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norman"
	add_trait="ambitious"
	add_trait="diligent"
	add_trait="proud"
	add_trait="cynical"
	add_trait="brave"
	add_trait="temperate"
	add_trait="patient"
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]add_trait="cruel"
	add_trait="just"
	add_trait="paranoid"[/COLOR]
	add_trait="legit_bastard"
	add_trait="brilliant_strategist"
	...

	105[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1[/COLOR].1.1 = {
		add_spouse=367 # Mathilda of Flanders
	}
	...

The 'just' trait will help to offset 'cruel' and 'paranoid' -- they're all pretty accurate character assessments, though.

His children need a few tweaks, too. I'll list them in the order they should probably be born, along with any suggestions marked in orange.

Code:

142 = {
	name="Robert"
	# AKA: Robert 'Curthose'
	dynasty=752
	martial=6
	diplomacy=4
	intrigue=4
	stewardship=3
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norman"
	add_trait="envious"
	add_trait="wroth"
	add_trait="lisp"
	add_trait="slothful"
	add_trait="skilled_tactician"
	father=140
	mother=367
	105[COLOR="#FF8C00"]2[/COLOR].1.1 = {
		birth="105[COLOR="#FF8C00"]2[/COLOR].1.1"
	}
	1096.1.1 = {
		add_trait="crusader"
	}
	1100.1.1 = {
		add_spouse=171162
	}
	1134.2.3 = {
		death="1134.2.3"
	}
}

Code:

141 = {
	name="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]Adelaide[/COLOR]"
	female=yes
	dynasty=752
	martial=6
	diplomacy=4
	intrigue=7
	stewardship=4
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norman"
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]add_trait="chaste"
	add_trait="scholarly_theologian"[/COLOR]
	father=140
	mother=367
	10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]53[/COLOR].1.2 = {
		birth="10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]53[/COLOR].1.2"
	}
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1066[/COLOR].1.2 = {
		death="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1066[/COLOR].1.2"
	}
}

Agatha de Normandie's existence is questionable, and a number of sources seem to confuse at least two (and sometimes three) of William's daughters, which means that it's very difficult to come up with even reasonably accurate dates for them. One or two may have died very young or simply never existed at all, and we really only have (confused) necrological dates to go by. So with this in mind, I've replaced Agatha (generally regarded as the least likely to have existed) with Adelaide, often ascribed as William's eldest daughter and betrothed to Harold Godwinson. She is said to have died before Edward the Confessor, thereby nullifying Harold's pact with William (Harold quickly remarried) and used as another excuse for the latter's invasion.

Code:

144 = {
	name="Richard"
	dynasty=752
	martial=6
	diplomacy=6
	intrigue=8
	stewardship=7
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norman"
	add_trait="martial_cleric"
	add_trait="ill"
	father=140
	mother=367
	105[COLOR="#FF8C00"]4[/COLOR].1.2 = {
		birth="105[COLOR="#FF8C00"]4[/COLOR].1.2"
	}
	10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]75[/COLOR].1.1 = {
		death="10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]75[/COLOR].1.1"
	}
}

Richard was killed in a hunting accident in the New Forest; his death date is routinely given as either 1075 or 1081, but I've plucked for the former because Vitalis states that Richard was 'a youth who had not yet received the belt of knighthood' -- to me this suggests he may have been younger when he died.

Code:

173 = {
	name="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]Matilda[/COLOR]"
	female=yes
	dynasty=752
	martial=5
	diplomacy=7
	intrigue=7
	stewardship=7
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norman"
	add_trait="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]ill[/COLOR]"
	add_trait="thrifty_clerk"
	father=140
	mother=367
	1055.1.2 = {
		birth="1055.1.2"
	}
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1086[/COLOR].1.2 = {
		death="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1086[/COLOR].1.2"
	}
}

I can find absolutely no mention anywhere of William having a daughter named Gundred, and as it's generally accepted that he had no illegitimate children then it's also unlikely that a bastard by that name existed. This rules out her existence as a de Normandie, so I'll replace her with Matilda, a daughter mentioned in the Domesday Book. Other sources question Matilda's existence, but because she is mentioned in the Book and a few Church records then we have reason enough to add her. To be honest, sources are pretty sketchy for all of William's daughters as they simply weren't that important in a feudal sense.

Code:

146 = {
	name="William"
	# AKA: William 'Rufus'
	dynasty=752
	martial=4
	diplomacy=7
	intrigue=7
	stewardship=4
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norman"
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]add_trait="wroth"
	add_trait="cruel"[/COLOR]
	add_trait="brave"
	add_trait="cynical"
	add_trait="charitable"
	add_trait="proud"
	add_trait="homosexual"
	add_trait="tough_soldier"
	father=140
	mother=367
	10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]56[/COLOR].1.1 = {
		birth="10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]56[/COLOR].1.1"
	}
	1100.8.3 = {
		death="1100.8.3"
	}
}

Veld disputes the trait suggestions -- if you don't want to add them, don't, but I'm suggesting them because William had a difficult reign and seems to have been loathed by many of his subjects. Of the three Norman kings, he is the only towards whom the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle is consistently hostile.

Code:

147 = {
	name="Cecilia"
	female=yes
	dynasty=752
	martial=7
	diplomacy=4
	intrigue=8
	stewardship=6
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norman"
	add_trait="proud"
	add_trait="thrifty_clerk"
	father=140
	mother=367
	105[COLOR="#FF8C00"]7[/COLOR].1.2 = {
		birth="105[COLOR="#FF8C00"]7[/COLOR].1.2"
	}
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1126.7.30[/COLOR] = {
		death="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1126.7.30[/COLOR]"
	}
}

Both Wikipedia and this source state that Cecilia died in 1126/27. As Wikipedia gives a specific date, we'll use that.

Code:

143 = {
	name="Constance"
	female=yes
	dynasty=752
	martial=8
	diplomacy=8
	intrigue=4
	stewardship=5
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norman"
	add_trait="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]midas_touched[/COLOR]"
	father=140
	mother=367
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1059[/COLOR].1.2 = {
		birth="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1059[/COLOR].1.2"
	}
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1090.8.13[/COLOR] = {
		death="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1090.8.13[/COLOR]"
	}
}

Constance was born between 1057 and 1061 and married Alan IV of Brittany. She was (probably) poisoned and died on August 13th, 1090.

Code:

205898 = {
	name="Adele"
	female=yes
	dynasty=752
	martial=8
	diplomacy=8
	intrigue=8
	stewardship=4
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norman"
	add_trait="amateurish_plotter"
	father=140
	mother=367
	10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]67[/COLOR].1.1 = {
		birth="10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]67[/COLOR].1.1"
	}
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1137.3.8[/COLOR] = {
		death="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1137.3.8[/COLOR]"
	}
}

Adela should be younger than she is now. She was Henry I's favorite sibling and almost certainly nearer his age than that of their older siblings. She of course married the count of Blois and was the mother of King Stephen.

Code:

202992 = {
	name="Henry" # Henry I of England
	dynasty=752
	martial=7
	diplomacy=[COLOR="#FF8C00"]6[/COLOR]
	intrigue=[COLOR="#FF8C00"]10[/COLOR]
	stewardship=6
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]learning=10[/COLOR]
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norman"
	add_trait="charismatic_negotiator"
	add_trait="diligent"
	add_trait="just"
	add_trait="proud"
	add_trait="patient"
	add_trait="brave"
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]add_trait="ambitious"[/COLOR]
	father=140
	mother=367
	1068.[COLOR="#FF8C00"]9[/COLOR].4 = {
		birth="1068.[COLOR="#FF8C00"]9[/COLOR].4"
	}
	1100.11.11 = {
		add_spouse=202995
	}
	1122.1.29 = {
		add_spouse=206857 #Adelheid Reginar
	}
	1135.12.1 = {
		death="1135.12.1"
	}
}

Henry was born in the latter part of 1068 -- Wikipedia says more generally between May '68 and May '69, whereas this source suggests September 1068. I'm happy to go with that, as it's generally accepted that he was born in Yorkshire in the Fall.

Henry was by far the most gifted of the Norman kings and should certainly be ambitious. It's possible (and was often rumored) that he had one, and perhaps two, of his older brothers murdered so as to get to the throne. I was tempted to suggest upgrading him to a 'grey_eminence' but I know not everyone agrees with my trait changes, so we can stick with 'charismatic_negotiator' for now. Either way he should have very high intrigue and learning (he was trained as a priest as he was never expected to become king) and be a very dangerous threat to his brothers.

That should be all nine children combed thru and corrected. Please bear in mind that, as mentioned above, the sources for the daughters are not great and therefore you will definitely find conflicting information. I've tried to use the sources available to me as best as I can, combined with a little common sense.

If I've missed anything or you find any errors, let me know here.

Sleight of Hand · Nov 11, 2012

As an addendum to this, I should point out that changing ID 173 Gundred to Matilda (as above) will cause a problem with her husband, William de Warenne, and their son William.

I've looked into this, and though no one really seems to think Gundred was William's daughter (it's a very odd name, and she is not listed alongside any of his other children), it's possible she was a step-daughter or simply a courtier who was at some point adopted into the Norman ruling family.

ID 175 seems to be free, so I'd just suggest doing this.

NEW:

Code:

175 = {
	name="Gundred"
	female=yes
	dynasty=724
	religion="catholic"
	culture="dutch"
	add_trait="harelip"
	add_trait="bastard"
	add_trait="thrifty_clerk"
	mother=367
	1051.1.2 = {
		birth="1051.1.2"
	}
	1066.1.1 = {
		employer=140
	}
	1085.1.2 = {
		death="1085.1.2"
	}
}

William de Warenne, an existing character:

Code:

172 = {
	name="William"
	dynasty=748
	martial=5
	diplomacy=5
	intrigue=8
	stewardship=7
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norman"
	add_trait="honest"
	add_trait="martial_cleric"
	father=174
	1034.1.2 = {
		birth="1034.1.2"
	}
	1066.1.1 = {
		employer=140
	}
	10[COLOR="#FF8C00"][COLOR="#FF8C00"]68[/COLOR][/COLOR].1.1 = {
		add_spouse=17[COLOR="#FF8C00"]5[/COLOR]
	}
	1088.6.24 = {
		death="1088.6.24"
	}
}

And their son, William:

Code:

171 = {
	name="William"
	dynasty=748
	martial=5
	diplomacy=5
	intrigue=8
	stewardship=7
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norman"
	add_trait="honest"
	add_trait="martial_cleric"
	father=172
	mother=17[COLOR="#FF8C00"]5[/COLOR]
	1071.1.2 = {
		birth="1071.1.2"
	}
	1115.1.1 = {
		add_spouse=551
	}
	1138.5.11 = {
		death="1138.5.11"
	}
}

That should do it.

Sleight of Hand · Nov 12, 2012

Finally, a word on Matilda of Flanders (William's wife) and the House of Blois.

The latter have been patched up in the second half of this post. Please see that those changes are added, even if you don't think it's a priority. :blush:

As for Matilda...

Code:

367 = {
	name="Mathild[COLOR="#FF8C00"]e[/COLOR]"
	female = yes
	dynasty=724
	martial=4
	diplomacy=6
	intrigue=[COLOR="#FF8C00"]4[/COLOR]
	stewardship=[COLOR="#FF8C00"]8[/COLOR]
	religion="catholic"
	culture="dutch"
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]add_trait="chaste"
	add_trait="zealous"
	add_trait="ambitious"
	add_trait="fortune_builder"[/COLOR]
	father=364
	mother=213
	1032.1.1={
		birth="1032.1.1"
	}
	1083.11.2={
		death="1083.11.2"
	}
}

I agree with these changes but they weren't my suggestion. I was PM'd them, so I'll post the PM here:

cybrxkhan said:
Changes and reasons behind them:

- Increased stewardship and added fortune builder as career trait: Matilda was known for having quite some wealth, and in fact much of William's Conquest was funded by Matilda
- Chaste: Matilda and William were well-known for being very devoted to each other; I would suggest maybe even giving William the chaste trait as well - he didn't cheat on his wife. At all.
- Zealous: Matilda was also, like William, known for being pretty religious
- Ambitious: She was known for pushing William to do things, as well as her sons, and while she never wanted to control everybody the way other wives or mothers would, she was certainly a dominating influence and she was known for being one of the few people who could calm William's temper, and I would suggest ambitious for representing this (diligent might work too, if you prefer that)
- Removed arbitrary, underhanded rougue, and decreased base intrigue stats: I have no idea why Paradox represented her as some conniving plotter

Thanks.

cybrxkhan · Nov 12, 2012

Thanks for posting these up.

Veldmaarschalk · Nov 12, 2012

Has been reported. Though not all your dates/names match with this and this source.

Also added the rest of Gundred's family.

Sleight of Hand · Nov 13, 2012

Veldmaarschalk said:
Though not all your dates/names match with this and this source.

No, but there are a number of sources and none of them match each other consistently. We just have to decide on rough dates. I've used those sources, Wikipedia, and a couple of others with less specific information.

Veldmaarschalk said:
Also added the rest of Gundred's family.

Who are they? Do you mean her family or the de Warennes? Did you make her a bastard of Matilda? (I'm not saying that's accurate, I just thought it was a possibility as we could represent her as being a child from a possible previous marriage -- you may have a better idea).

EDIT: Also, having thought about it and studied the effects in 00_traits.txt I would suggest changing Henry I's education trait from 'charismatic_negotiator' to 'intricate_webweaver' -- the intrigue-based equivalent. I think this better suits his personality/achievements, as he seemed to be much more a spymaster type figure than a master diplomat (though he was also adept at diplomacy).

If you disagree then of course don't make the change, but I think it better suits him.

Veldmaarschalk · Nov 13, 2012

Sleight of Hand said:
Who are they? Do you mean her family or the de Warennes? Did you make her a bastard of Matilda? (I'm not saying that's accurate, I just thought it was a possibility as we could represent her as being a child from a possible previous marriage -- you may have a better idea).

No, she is not a bastard of Matilda, I have added her father Gerbod, her brother Gerbod (who is made earl of Chester) and her brother Frederik. Also added the wife of Gerbod (the earl of Chester), Ada and their 3 sons, Arnulf, Gerbod and Albrecht.

Sleight of Hand · Nov 13, 2012

Ahh, I didn't know about those. Nice one.

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Some miscellaneous database corrections for the Normans

Sleight of Hand

retired modder

Sleight of Hand

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Sleight of Hand

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cybrxkhan

Going to Scarborough Fair

Veldmaarschalk

Cool Cat

Sleight of Hand

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Veldmaarschalk

Cool Cat

Sleight of Hand

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