Some jewish nobles that can be added

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I have been able to find a few jewish nobles that can be added atleast for Castile.

Ibn Shalib/Shalbib (1066 scenerio)
male, jewish arab (?), reckless, trusting
likely diplomatic education (probably gruff diplomat) (or court as i can't find a birthdate), also probably low intrigue
died in 1082 when he was killed as the emisarry, so it wasn't a narutal death which doesn't help (even with minimum age of 16 it would still work out correctly though)

Yusuf Ibn al-Fakhkhar (1187 scenerio)
male, jewish arab, wise, energetic
diplomatic education for sure, charasmatic negotiator atleast, good diplomatic score since he was successful. Concluded this in 1217 given date he went for ck terms since i can't find any historic bdate 1175 is the latest here imo.

Ibrahim Ibn Zarzar (1337 scenerio)
male, jewish arab, 50 prestige (well reknowned), wise, merciful, just
likely should start in Granada with a low loyalty if possible.
I'm not sure what education to give him as he was a renkowned physician but acted as a diplomat as well.
He comes to note in 1364 as was a reknwned physician to Muhammad V of Granada previously which means he was likely of a descent age by then.

All of these because they are physicians should start with above normal health for courtiers little is known about and atleast Yosuf with a wife so he can produce heirs even for a human.

Ibn al-Fakhkhar was also a prominant jewish dynasty and should have atleast one jewish person of that dynasty in castile during the scenerio to represent this as they were used as advisors or assisants by the kings of Castile untl later. Might also atleast have in 1066 the default courtier married so they can continue the theoritical line to the time of Yosuf and beyond for humans.

This is one of the sites i got the material from:
http://www.routledge-ny.com/middleages/Jewish/Ambassadors.pdf

I know this won't do much, but considering how little paradox is using jewish courtiers and religion (not events) almost anything right now in that department is likely good thing.

 

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Jewish Muslims?

 

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arab = religion
muslim = culture

 

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:wacko:

moslem = religion
muslim = culture, which appears as "Arab" in the game

So they should be Jewish Arabs?

 

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:wacko:

moslem = religion
muslim = culture, which appears as "Arab" in the game

So they should be Jewish Arabs?

The last one definantly. The second one unless i can get something otherwise, Ibn al-Fakhkhar is arab origin name, and the first one i'm not sure of, but it doesn't sound castillian.

Also Ibrahim Ibn Zarzar being a physician of some quality (serving two king-tiers as their physcians) he should probably have above normal health for a courtier not much is known about since he'll know how to treat himself to stay healthy.

 

[Calgacus]

Yes, I wish the game would make more use of Jewish courtiers, esp. in mediterranean regions - christian and moslem.

 

[Lord Costabella]

I disagree.

Jewish=culture
Muslim= religion

There were many Jews who were forced by the sword to convert to Islam by the invading Muslim armies, especially in the period during Muhammad's rise to power. So it makes sense that there were Muslims of Jewish descent, who changed their names to Islamic ones or who were 2nd gen converts.

 

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first post updated

 

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I disagree.

Jewish=culture
Muslim= religion

There were many Jews who were forced by the sword to convert to Islam by the invading Muslim armies, especially in the period during Muhammad's rise to power. So it makes sense that there were Muslims of Jewish descent, who changed their names to Islamic ones or who were 2nd gen converts.

Theere were also those that survived this forced conversion even in the Middle East, but all over.

Besides the referring text and others i came across were referring to them as jewish in religion, not culture. And FE, the Pope's edict which was dismissed by Alfonso V and followed by later Castilian rulers to stop using jewish advisors as they weren't christians.

Aslo CK treats jewish people only as a religion.

 

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I fear what people would say about events to send inquisitors after "heathen" Jews...

 

[Ayeshteni]

I fear what people would say about events to send inquisitors after "heathen" Jews...

no different to Muslims and pagans.

besides, surely it is better to have 'some' representation of the Jewish community than very little at all.

I personally would like to see more Jewish representation in the game (I think Jinnais proposals are good)

The Jews Jinnai mentioned should perhaps have the 'culture' of the court they are in?

Arab is of course a possible.

yours
Ayeshteni

 

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I personally would like to see more Jewish representation in the game (I think Jinnais proposals are good)

Any opinions on including the remains of Khazaria?

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=203387

 

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I fear what people would say about events to send inquisitors after "heathen" Jews...

Compared to what people say about those muslim events in today's atmosphere?

This ins't the era of wholesale state sponsored genoicide. This mostly an era of opression from catholics with shifting amoints of intolerance depending on who was the local ruler and what was happening on the ground. Also there were many prominent jewish noble families throughout europe something completely ignored here that isn't that hard to represent.

The Jews Jinnai mentioned should perhaps have the 'culture' of the court they are in?

Arab is of course a possible.

Wel Ibrahim Ibn Zarzar came from Granada and so without any more background we should use arab culture for him because of that. Ibn al-Fakhkhar and Ibn Shalib or Ibn Shalbib are arab names. We could in 1066 have them arab and the other scenerios have them castilian.

 

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I desperately think adding these Jewish courtiers in Spain and a sprinkling of others across Europe would be a HUGE HUGE HUGE improvement to a game that apparently holds no place for them at all at the moment. They existed, they had influence, and since the engine uses them, I feel one of the easiest ways to add a little something to the game is to make use of this existing component. The Jews were especially predominant in places like Muslim Egypt and Spain, and they also had a place in Germany. We also need Jewish women/wives to allow for procreation. Here are some other courtiers I've found to be put in the game:

Sheshet Benveniste
(b. 1131; d. 1205-1209)
http://medspains.stanford.edu/demo/people/benveniste.html
Location: Whoever holds Barcelona in the 1066 scenario
Description: Physician, translator, and scholar who was extremely well-respected and connected with his Muslim rulers with especially praised Arabic ability. Probably should get a high diplomacy rating with wise, merciful, just, and 50 prestige. Should be included in the game with a wife

1187 Scenario
Shealtiel, son of Sheshet (don't know how to render this)
Barcelona
Just a recorded courtier that can be given normal stats
http://websfor.me.uk/shealtiel/features/david.asp


Anyone else have some traditional Jewish courtiers? I really would like a push to get some Jewish families and therefore characters into this game.

 

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As i said Ibn al-Fakhkhar was a prominent jewish family and should probaly have several jewish males and females in castilla and its vassals atleast.

Atleast one for each scenerio even if we can't come up with actual names minimum.

Its a shame we can't make dynasties set as a specific religion for random courtier spawns...

 

[Sanjar]

Well, this thread inspired me to check ( I never have before ) and I was pleased to see that the most significant Jewish courtier in Spain in 1066 is already modeled, even though realistically he only had four days to live - Joseph, son of Samuel ibn Nighrila, vizier of Granada ( probably best modeled as chancellor ) was executed on December 30, 1066 in a prelude to the rather atypical Granada massacre. Between him and his father they had exercised chief ministerial powers in Granada for nearly forty years.

There were many Jews who were forced by the sword to convert to Islam by the invading Muslim armies, especially in the period during Muhammad's rise to power. So it makes sense that there were Muslims of Jewish descent, who changed their names to Islamic ones or who were 2nd gen converts.

I'll just note in passing that forced conversion was not the norm in Islamic history ( though it certainly occurred ). Islam generally claims that 'there is no compulsion in religion' and one of the very few acceptable excuses for apostasy ( normally punishable by death ) is forced conversion, which is regarded as invalid. Of course just because it wasn't considered lawful by most doesn't mean everyone agreed or that it didn't happen - the chief offenders in Spain appear to have been the early Almohades ( al-Muwahiddun ). It was in light of the unsavory practices of that sect that the great Jewish theologian Maimonides declared that it was acceptable for Jews to pretend to convert to Islam when persecuted, as Islam was a monotheistic faith, but that it was still better to die a martyr than pretend to convert to Christianity, since in his eyes it was polytheistic ( the issue being Trinitarianism ).

The adoption of Arabic names by Jewish subjects of Muslim nations was probably most commonly just an issue of adapting to the dominant lingua franca of the time, rather than a sign of a previous forced conversion recanted. Indeed Arabic spread much more quickly in the west than Islam did.

- Sanjar

 

[Secret Master]

I'm wondering, though, whether having courtiers with Jewish religion is practical from a game standpoint.

The engine treats Jewish religion as Pagan, meaning that they shouldn't be given titles, they'll have inquisitions against them, and the Pope will complain if you make them advisors, and they'll probably convert to the liege's religion after awhile.

I'm not saying they aren't important historically, but the engine will treat them harsher than they should be under historical circumstances, which will make it a waste of time for them to be included. After all, the inquisition will wipe them all out within a few months, or they'll be Christian.

Now, if the engine was modified to treat them as a real religion, you could make a real Khazar state and whatnot.

 

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From what I've read, there was probably more tolerance of other religions in Moorish Spain than in anywhere else in Europe at that time.

 

[Secret Master]

Exactly, but the CK engine won't allow for that tolerance, resulting in a quick and ahistorical slaughter/conversion by the sword. Almost like post-Reconquista Spain, ecept it doesn't make much sense in the CK era without ability to have separate recognition (and thus potentially separate policies) of Judiasm as a non-pagan faith.

 

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Aren't Jewish separate from Pagans at least eventwise?