Some general historical issues

[Arthrodira]

They weren't that significant at the time. Like at all, they only became significant when revolting against the Romans, but that's almost 400 years after the start of the game

Don’t be dense you know exactly what I’m talking about and you conveniently skipped the Maccabees Revolt against the Seleukids

 

[Arthrodira]

This seems roughly equivalent to arguing that the Netherlands should exist at start in EU4 or that the Ottomans should exist at start in CK3. An independent Jewish state simply did not exist in any form in 304BC and would not exist until over a century into the game's timeframe.

No. It’s almost equivalent to arguing that Holland should be independent in eu4 - and what do you know it is. The ottomans is an absolutely ridiculous comparison - we’re not talking about a state that came into existence at the end of the game. We’re talking about a group that was notably autonomous and that did revolt against the Seleukids in defense of that autonomy. And that’s all ignoring the real reason they matter, which is the simple fact that they are the single most influential state in the whole game. There’s several billion people who trace their religion to Judea, don’t pretend otherwise

 

[Arthrodira]

The Dutch get the Dutch revolt, and ck2 had a seljuk event. As IR has a single start date we need some ahistorical parts. Eu4 is getting Aceh in 1444,and safavids in ardabil got added in CoC as examples of anachronisms, evenki as one of the 3 old manchu tribes was also ahistoric as its what the Chinese iirc called them. Not themselves

And I don’t remember complaints about the Oda clan in Japan either. People are conveniently ignoring how common this type of thing is in pdx games.

 

[Battlex]

No. It’s almost equivalent to arguing that Holland should be independent in eu4 - and what do you know it is. The ottomans is an absolutely ridiculous comparison - we’re not talking about a state that came into existence at the end of the game. We’re talking about a group that was notably autonomous and that did revolt against the Seleukids in defense of that autonomy. And that’s all ignoring the real reason they matter, which is the simple fact that they are the single most influential state in the whole game. There’s several billion people who trace their religion to Judea, don’t pretend otherwise

Holland also doesn't get inherited during the Burgundian Inheritance if the player plays as them, same with the rest of burgundy's pus

 

[Jiben]

Bactria for example should probablly start as part of the selucids but they are a vassal to make them playable at startdate so Judea might have a simular approach? You could probablly argue they should be more than a tributary but if you remove them altogether bactria and most of the diadochi vassals would probablly have to be removed aswell.

 

[elowen]

3) When the Antigonid Kingdom breaks up on Antigonus' death, why do the Antipatrids get Caria and Cilicia? Historically, after the Battle of Ipsus Ptolemy took Caria and Lycia and Lysimachus took Asia Minor.

The Antigonid mission preview actually showed Caria being released under Pleistarchus, as happened historically, and the event Macedon gets when the Antagonids waver suggests that this should still be an option. However, it doesn't work, and Macedon is forced to directly annex the land every time.

 

[Battlex]

The Antigonid mission preview actually showed Caria being released under Pleistarchus, as happened historically, and the event Macedon gets when the Antagonids waver suggests that this should still be an option. However, it doesn't work, and Macedon is forced to directly annex the land every time.

How many of the early events and missions of tags being released are historical? Everyone knows about Pergamon, but what about Cyprus and Sidon that Egypt gets, I tried googleing the names but got nothing just the dev diaries, but the fact the event for Cyprus makes him marry one of your daughters, even if she's already married makes it feel it is historical. Also for how long were Pergamon and others tributaries of Thrace for, until Lyschimaus died and the thracian tribes rose up?

 

[Ketchup & friends]

Judea and Samaria are not independent, they’re tributaries of the Antigonids. That’s as close to the historical conditions that’s currently possible in the game, but still very flawed:

it makes them playable as theocratic monarchies (they were rules by hereditary high priests)

But:

• they can get independence instantly (by canceling tribute)
• The Diadochi had more control over them historically.

The game NEEDS a puppet rework (it was announced for 1.5 but cancelled later).

1 @Samitte’s proposed temple state would fit better (with changes to requirements: not only Anatolian culture group and same religion, up to 10 territories instead of 5).

Temple-State subject type:
Requirements:
Creatable via a special action like Syracusae's Mercenary States, for Anatolian culture tags.
Some become available some other way (Pessinous for Pergamon, Olbe for the Diadochi, others present at game start)
5 or less provinces.
Capital needs to have the Temple-state modifier.
Must be a theocratic form of government.
Must be same religion as overlord.

Payment to overlord:
10% of income
50% of manpower

Other effects:
Overlord gains monthly Legitimacy, and Omen Power.
Subject gains Omen Power, Omen Duration, and a Commerce Income modifier.

Temple States do not cost a Diplomatic Slot, do Join Wars, can be Integrated, cannot Break their relation, and has Limited Diplomacy.

2 use the autonomous enclave mechanics from the generic peace mission.

• Give all temple states without unique heritages (E.g. Samaria, Olbe, Bambyce but not Judea) the Religious State heritage.
• give their capitols the Sacred Temple Complex modifier! exceptional special case for Jerusalem and Shekhem:

Jerusalem should have a Jewish temple modifier and Shekhem a Samaritan temple modifier, both with the same effect (probably increased commerce income, to represent the traders exchanging coins and selling sacrificial animals. Increased state religion happiness would feel wrong if a non-jewish country owns the territory). If Judea conquers Shekhem or Samaria conquers Jerusalem, they should have an event asking them how to deal with the “heretic” temple:

- destroy it, removing the temple, -500 opinion for the other jewish country if it still exists, triggers a rebellion in the Judaea or Samaria province respectively.

- let it exist. The other temple stays, but the country gets a permanent stability debuff (perhaps -0,5 stability per month representing the split between the two Jewish sects.

If another country converts to Judaism, they should get an event letting them choose the site they consider holy. Afterwards, they can get the same event we proposed above if they acquire both cities.

3: for the currently missing tags:

• Ammon was described as a vassal of the Diadochi, should be a tributary or Client state of the Antigonids.
• Moab should be a feudatory of Nabatea.
• Idumea should be completely independent.

 

[Samitte]

• Moab should be a feudatory of Nabatea.
• Idumea should be completely independent.

I cant speak for Ammon, in the preceeding years (around 312) Antigonus had attacked and pushed back the Nabateans, and was in control of Moab and Idumaea. We have archaeological evidence for this as well, from Idumaea, showing it was under Antigonid control at the start of the game.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

in the preceeding years (around 312) Antigonus had attacked and pushed back the Nabateans, and was in control of Moab and Idumaea. We have archaeological evidence for this as well, from Idumaea, showing it was under Antigonid control at the start of the game.

Has Antigonid control lasted until 304BC? they've lost the later confrontation with Nabatea.

if yes: would Moab and Idumea be tributaries?

 

[goodcigar]

The temple in Athens should be Athena Parthenos not Athena. I also find it odd Athens doesn't have a Wonder at game start. I mean there are multiple famous historical buildings there including the Parthenon.

Sparta still doesn't have two Kings in the game.

Historical defense Leagues in Greece should have names in my opinion. And the members should have a historical affinity buff in relations between them I think.

The most famous pass of all, the Thermopylae 'Hot Gates' is missing.

No being able to raise a professional army 'Legion' because I don't own an arbitrary number of territories (25-99) really annoys me. I have the population, technology and money. No reason I shouldn't be able to raise a small professional force as a small nation like Athens. Really screws over my attempt to play tall.

The Wonder builder has extremely limited options. I wanted to build a building like the Parthenon but the correct roof type is not there. And not being able to choose colors independent from materials is annoying. The Wonder builder is a good idea (that I'd like to see expanded to the entire city) but its options are extremely limited. Good idea but very mediocre implementation.

Greek characters shouldn't wear Roman togas I don't think.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1725685081 Helvetian. Not sure if this is still needed.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2223115444 neat mod

 

[LAF1994]

Judea and Samaria are not independent, they’re tributaries of the Antigonids. That’s as close to the historical conditions that’s currently possible in the game, but still very flawed:

it makes them playable as theocratic monarchies (they were rules by hereditary high priests)

But:

• they can get independence instantly (by canceling tribute)
• The Diadochi had more control over them historically.

The biggest problem overall is that there is currently very little in-game to model the rather complex nature of internal administration in Classical states. The system for subject states is basically copied from EU, in which clients are mostly just a timer until you can annex. Something more akin to CK might be better, although the mechanics would still need to be significantly altered to fit the period.
For example, in Ptolemaic Egypt the Greek cities (Alexandria, Naucratis and Ptolemais) were run as Greek poleis almost completely independently from the administration of the rest of Egypt (which was still largely run in the traditional Egyptian manner, albeit with many administrative positions now filled by Greeks).
In Judea's case, the priesthood definitely maintained a substantial control over life in the region, but they did so on behalf of their Hellenistic rulers (as had been the case under the Persians). A more accurate system would be to use the cultural privileges system already present in I:R, although for some reason this is treated in-game as exceptional circumstances rather than something that was mostly standard operating procedure as most non-Greeks in the Hellenistic kingdoms were administered by existing institutions, usually the native priesthoods (which possessed considerable control over the economy and were often relied on for collecting taxes).
Side note; why is the Levantine culture group (Jewish, Phoenician, Punic, Nabataean) separate from the Aramaic group? Historically, both the Hasmonean Kingdom and the Nabataeans used Aramaic as the principle language of administration.

 

[Chiron]

The biggest problem overall is that there is currently very little in-game to model the rather complex nature of internal administration in Classical states. The system for subject states is basically copied from EU, in which clients are mostly just a timer until you can annex. Something more akin to CK might be better, although the mechanics would still need to be significantly altered to fit the period.
For example, in Ptolemaic Egypt the Greek cities (Alexandria, Naucratis and Ptolemais) were run as Greek poleis almost completely independently from the administration of the rest of Egypt (which was still largely run in the traditional Egyptian manner, albeit with many administrative positions now filled by Greeks).
In Judea's case, the priesthood definitely maintained a substantial control over life in the region, but they did so on behalf of their Hellenistic rulers (as had been the case under the Persians). A more accurate system would be to use the cultural privileges system already present in I:R, although for some reason this is treated in-game as exceptional circumstances rather than something that was mostly standard operating procedure as most non-Greeks in the Hellenistic kingdoms were administered by existing institutions, usually the native priesthoods (which possessed considerable control over the economy and were often relied on for collecting taxes).
Side note; why is the Levantine culture group (Jewish, Phoenician, Punic, Nabataean) separate from the Aramaic group? Historically, both the Hasmonean Kingdom and the Nabataeans used Aramaic as the principle language of administration.

I think essentially the game needs much longer client state integration times and or occasional unrest if you take over a state with different culture. Alongside much much longer cultural integration times and generally more province instability if your a larger empire as governors and populations want to go their own way. Society was heavily decentralised and that promotes local rule and governors getting ideas.

 

[The_Sound_Of_Violence]

The temple in Athens should be Athena Parthenos not Athena.

Maybe 'Athena polias' could be also considered as it underlines Athena's role as defender of the city? 'Parthenos' in fact indicates that Athena was a virgin goddess; I don't see how that would fit in the game.

(Fun fact: it has been argued by some historians that the Parthenon of Athens wasn't actually a temple, as it doesn't seem that religious ceremonies were held there.)