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CruelDwarf

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Can you please explain how the goal of a classless society can be achieved if "status consumption" exists. The mere idea requires classes and different degrees of privilege.
Class-less society is a state-less society. And state-less society was a primitive stage at which division of labor (and therefore classes) wasn't manifested yet because there was no need to a complex organization for available means of production. It is why societies of primitive humans are sometimes described as 'primeval communism' sometimes. It is the reason why Soviet Union didn't call itself class-less state. Soviet Union called itself 'a state of proletariat' (of working class).

State-less society with at the high technology stage could only be achieved by empowering individual to the level at which he/she no longer would resemble the modern definition of what 'human' is. Here we go into firmly transhumanism/posthumanism territory.

Do you want to imagine what such society could like? Imagine a society of people with functional immortality, probably with a consciousness distributed among multiple different platforms at any given time while individual is essentially is an independent entity in economical and/or political sense. It is a a truly class-less and state-less society as each individual have either the ability to achieve what he/she wants. You can say that it is utopia, a society of gods. but I say that it is simply a logical result of human progress which is inevitable in a sense that either we destroy each other before that or we will be there eventually. Astronomers already discovered a thing that could be a Dyson swarm under construction around a distant star, so there is hope that such development level is actually achievable for a sapient life.

But in any case It i the reason why I prefer to speak about transitional forms from capitalism/socialism to a communism as they could be better defined through concepts which are already exist. It is far easier to perceive and relate to.

Is not the idea of working harder to acquire "status consumption" <aka wealth> antithetical to communism? Isn't that actually Capitalism?
No, strong work ethics is important concept for communism. And you cannot really have strong work ethics without being rewarded for it in some form. Absolute equality is simply not a thing which communism is about. The concept was of course used extensively in the past because you need to appeal to the destitute people but capitalism in propaganda and capitalism in reality are also quite different, aren't they? Both capitalism and communism are about equality of opportunity but communism is simply closer to actually achieve that.

As I said previously, three most important traits of communist formation are:

1. No private ownership of the means of production so no one would be in position to monopolize the production of anything. In fact the access to the facilities with limited available 'throughput' would be probably one of the form of 'status consumption' in such society. More people could design and build furniture and less people could design and build spaceships.

2. Lack of exploitation of a human by another human (I hope that when we reach this point it would be 'of one sapient being by another sapient being'). This concept is also dependent on the third one. No one is forced to work to survive and to reach a socially acceptable standard of living. How much it would be? Well, it would depend on how well society is developed and how much resources are available to it. And the last important thing here is that any work relations between humans are voluntary but not necessary equal (think Sisko restaurant in Star Trek DS9).

3. Third concept is hardest one actually. It is lack of 'alienated labor'. Alienated labor is a labor in which worker is divested from the results of his labor because he either do not own the final product and/or because he only produce a small part of final product which is meaningless to him without a whole. So it is problem about division of labor more or less. Robotics and automation helps here of course but complexity of modern and especially future tech would require a cooperation between multiple humans for a very long time (until class/stateless society akin to the described above would be possible). This conflict require both a concept of communal property (in addition to personal/private one) and some form of regulating body/state to resolve such 'propertiary' conflicts (and other stuff which would require organization of large groups of humans like maybe military or space exploration and stuff).
 
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SDSkinner

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People were able to meet all their vital needs while on the dole; since it exactly meets wiki definition, I'm not seeing how it is a strawman.

Do you want to imagine what such society could like? Imagine a society of people with functional immortality, probably with a consciousness distributed among multiple different platforms at any given time while individual is essentially is an independent entity in economical and/or political sense. It is a a truly class-less and state-less society as each individual have either the ability to achieve what he/she wants. You can say that it is utopia, a society of gods. but I say that it is simply a logical result of human progress which is inevitable in a sense that either we destroy each other before that or we will be there eventually. Astronomers already discovered a thing that could be a Dyson swarm under construction around a distant star, so there is hope that such development level is actually achievable for a sapient life.

Evolutionary biology called. They say the organisms most effective at copying itself will eventually dominate and things will resume a Malthusian existence.

1. No private ownership of the means of production so no one would be in position to monopolize the production of anything. In fact the access to the facilities with limited available 'throughput' would be probably one of the form of 'status consumption' in such society. More people could design and build furniture and less people could design and build spaceships.

Instead of cash, access to things you want is through connections and favors? Cronyism?

2. Lack of exploitation of a human by another human (I hope that when we reach this point it would be 'of one sapient being by another sapient being'). This concept is also dependent on the third one. No one is forced to work to survive and to reach a socially acceptable standard of living. How much it would be? Well, it would depend on how well society is developed and how much resources are available to it. And the last important thing here is that any work relations between humans are voluntary but not necessary equal (think Sisko restaurant in Star Trek DS9).

Socially acceptable standard of living is always increasing; as long as it increases as fast as productivity gains, this will never be possible.

3. Third concept is hardest one actually. It is lack of 'alienated labor'. Alienated labor is a labor in which worker is divested from the results of his labor because he either do not own the final product and/or because he only produce a small part of final product which is meaningless to him without a whole. So it is problem about division of labor more or less. Robotics and automation helps here of course but complexity of modern and especially future tech would require a cooperation between multiple humans for a very long time (until class/stateless society akin to the described above would be possible). This conflict require both a concept of communal property (in addition to personal/private one) and some form of regulating body/state to resolve such 'propertiary' conflicts (and other stuff which would require organization of large groups of humans like maybe military or space exploration and stuff).

So instead of not being in charge of it... they will not be in charge of it. At least in the former they can buy stock and have a larger say over time; there is no possibility of that occurring in the second.
 

CruelDwarf

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People were able to meet all their vital needs while on the dole; since it exactly meets wiki definition, I'm not seeing how it is a strawman.
All of the vital needs? I'm not so sure. Education and medical care is not free on dole in US for sure. So you can probably state that perfectly healthy human being without desire to self-improvement have it in US. But I very much unsure that any significant amount of US poor is even close to perfect health.

Evolutionary biology called. They say the organisms most effective at copying itself will eventually dominate and things will resume a Malthusian existence.
And this refutes the argument how? What is 'Malthusian existence'?
I know what is 'Malthusian trap/catastrophe' is but I'm not aware of defined term 'Malthusian existence'.If you state that technological development would be negated by ever increasing population growth then you are probably still wrong as it is visible trend that the more developed society becomes the less natural population growth it have. And even if this postulate would be proven as incorrect in the future birth control is still a thing.

And another thing: biological evolution is barely applies to humans. For example there is no way for me to survive and leave descendants in natural environment. I would be already dead without vast human advancement in the area of controlling and subjugation of nature. Humans are simply not governed by natural evolution anymore.

Instead of cash, access to things you want is through connections and favors? Cronyism?
It could be 'cash' it could be whatever. 'Cash' is so redefinable concept. Communist society could have social credit, communist society could have energy-based (or whatever else-based) currency. 'Moneyless' part is another example of what received disproportionaly presented because of propaganda reasons by both sides of the ideological conflict.

And I must note that at the top of the hierarchy of status consumption all comes to 'connection' and 'cronyism' even in capitalistic economies. Because there is a plenty of stuff that money cannot buy or even if you can buy it the people who already have it have no obligations to accept you as the part of their circle.

Socially acceptable standard of living is always increasing; as long as it increases as fast as productivity gains, this will never be possible.
It is a claim, not an argument. As I said previously - human needs are clearly finite. Human need only so much food, only so much shelter, only so much clothing and only so much medical care.

You can say that the capitalistic economy will invent diamond-encrusted future-iPhones with quantum-entanglement communicators just to keep the threadmill going but I call bullshit on it. Because it is both meaningless as radio-based communication is not only cheaper but also more effective than quantum-entanglement at least until we speak about interplanetary distances. And at this point we both speak about technology level so far out that it is hard to predict anything and also we speak about situation when instant communication with other planets is simply an element of status consumption again.

And the last thing here is of course consumer electronics and computational power available to the individual. Computers indeed could became vastly more expensive after some technology shit (to carbon nanotubes or whatever) but again this problem could (and should) be solved not by making more powerful individual devices but by introducing of more and more distributed processing, so every power-intensive task which this particular individual want to perform is not actually calculated on his personal communicator but by every single device which have available processing power around him. And it is again plays in favor of communist-style economy.

So instead of not being in charge of it... they will not be in charge of it. At least in the former they can buy stock and have a larger say over time; there is no possibility of that occurring in the second.
Firstly, the amount of control that stockholders have in capitalist economy over actual physical assets is practically non-existent.
Secondly, the most probable form for a transitional communist government is a democracy with a tendency towards more and more of direct democracy, so people would have plenty of 'say' in things anyway.
 
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All of the vital needs? I'm not so sure. Education and medical care is not free on dole in US for sure. So you can probably state that perfectly healthy human being without desire to self-improvement have it in US. But I very much unsure that any significant amount of US poor is even close to perfect health.

Education is free in the US. Really. Up till high school there is no cost. After high school, guess what? You can attend any university in the country for free. Seriously. You can't become a student, but it is perfectly possible to attend classes and use the library. Currently online courses are offered... also for the low price of free (certification again costs money).

As for healthcare, poor in the US are covered by Medicaid.

And this refutes the argument how? What is 'Malthusian existence'?
I know what is 'Malthusian trap/catastrophe' is but I'm not aware of defined term 'Malthusian existence'.If you state that technological development would be negated by ever increasing population growth then you are probably still wrong as it is visible trend that the more developed society becomes the less natural population growth it have. And even if this postulate would be proven as incorrect in the future birth control is still a thing.

You were talking about human uploads. Uploads can copy themselves indefinitely. Robin Hason talks about this alot, but suffice to say that it gets very distopian very fast- I can go into the details if you really want.

And another thing: biological evolution is barely applies to humans. For example there is no way for me to survive and leave descendants in natural environment. I would be already dead without vast human advancement in the area of controlling and subjugation of nature. Humans are simply not governed by natural evolution anymore.

That would be true if everyone had the same number of kids. They don't. "Want to have kids" is the trait currently being selected for hard.

It could be 'cash' it could be whatever. 'Cash' is so redefinable concept. Communist society could have social credit, communist society could have energy-based (or whatever else-based) currency. 'Moneyless' part is another example of what received disproportionaly presented because of propaganda reasons by both sides of the ideological conflict.

Then people can monopolize the means of production by spending 'social credit'.

And I must note that at the top of the hierarchy of status consumption all comes to 'connection' and 'cronyism' even in capitalistic economies. Because there is a plenty of stuff that money cannot buy or even if you can buy it the people who already have it have no obligations to accept you as the part of their circle.

That is due to trust issues, not an inherent feature. For cases that don't involve trust, ponying up cash works fine.

It is a claim, not an argument. As I said previously - human needs are clearly finite. Human need only so much food, only so much shelter, only so much clothing and only so much medical care.

And if people's wants were based on that, it might be relevant. Wants are not related to needs.

You can say that the capitalistic economy will invent diamond-encrusted future-iPhones with quantum-entanglement communicators just to keep the threadmill going but I call bullshit on it. Because it is both meaningless as radio-based communication is not only cheaper but also more effective than quantum-entanglement at least until we speak about interplanetary distances. And at this point we both speak about technology level so far out that it is hard to predict anything and also we speak about situation when instant communication with other planets is simply an element of status consumption again.

That isn't a positional good. Positional goods are ones that only a limited number of people can have so they constantly get bid up. Housing and education are the most obvious examples. Only so many people can live near the best people and go to school with them.

Firstly, the amount of control that stockholders have in capitalist economy over actual physical assets is practically non-existent.
Secondly, the most probable form for a transitional communist government is a democracy with a tendency towards more and more of direct democracy, so people would have plenty of 'say' in things anyway.

If you own 1 stock out of a 10 billion you have as much say as if you are one voter out of 10 billion. That is to say absolutely none.

You can attempt to have voting be more localized, but that is inherently unstable. Without enter/exit controls it leads to pillaging. With them it leads right back to nations.
 

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You were talking about human uploads. Uploads can copy themselves indefinitely. Robin Hason talks about this alot, but suffice to say that it gets very distopian very fast
It could be. Or not.

Firstly, there is no real need to indefinitely copy itself because there is no practical purpose in that. Just ask your self - would you populate your surroundings by copies of yourself if you can? I'm for sure not. So why a being which probably not have human body in recognizable form anymore would have a biological urge to procreate by multipling itself?

Secondly, it is questionable that you can actually 'copy' a human mind. I don't think that is is possible to separate 'software' from 'hardware' in that case. And even if you do that you will receive not a copy but entirely different being as the result. It is why I didn't mention uploads at all but called it a 'distributed consciousness'. You can add 'blocks' to it, to increase the functionality or to give it presence in some other area, but you cannot really copy it because you will receive another 'person' in the end and it would probably require the creation of separate piece of specialized hardware aka 'human brain'.

That would be true if everyone had the same number of kids. They don't. "Want to have kids" is the trait currently being selected for hard.
So? Firstly it would simply compensate to the current population aging in the developed society and after some sort of balance point would be reached birth control will happen. Simple as that. Or maybe space colonization.

Then people can monopolize the means of production by spending 'social credit'.
It is not like capitalist economy never encountered artificially created 'crashes' or simple 'hiccups'. Any possible system could be abused and there are plenty of mechanism that prevent or stop such abuses.
For example in social credit terms - imagine a guy who was all nice and productive during his life and amassed huge amounts of 'credit' by doing useful stuff. And at some point he gone bad for some reason and started to use his credit to do meaningless or even harmful stuff.How the society would react? How do you react to a person who behave like an asshole? You ignore him. How do you react to a person who is abusive asshole? You stop socializing with him altogether. How do you react towards a person who behave like a violent asshole? You call a police on him.
It is the same in a communist society. You prevent the access to a stuff which is limited either by amount or by throughput? If you have reasons for that, if you are trusted enough - you can do it. For some time. If you abuse it? Well, it is the reason why state-less society is much futher away.

'Do not be an asshole' would be probably one of the main principles of such society.

That is due to trust issues, not an inherent feature. For cases that don't involve trust, ponying up cash works fine.
With only cash you will be looked down as an 'upstart' in such societies at best. And yes, it indeed involve trust, it involve personal relations.

And if people's wants were based on that, it might be relevant. Wants are not related to needs.
They are. Even more - wants are based on what we told to want by society around us. Wants beyond very basic ones aren't inherent or objective they are subjective and modifiable. Why do you think advertisement is long surpassed simple information role and now aimed to literally 'force' you to want to buy this thing? It is social programming pure and simple. And there are different ways to use social programming.

That isn't a positional good. Positional goods are ones that only a limited number of people can have so they constantly get bid up. Housing and education are the most obvious examples. Only so many people can live near the best people and go to school with them.
Yeah, so? You want to live with the best and brightest of the communist society? Be one of the best and brightest. The only thing that changes here is the definition of who is 'the best and the brightest'.

You can attempt to have voting be more localized, but that is inherently unstable. Without enter/exit controls it leads to pillaging. With them it leads right back to nations.
And I cannot think about anything which prevents nations from existing at the communist formation. There is no need to have a world government under communist system than under a capitalist one. Layered government system would be a thing until, as I said, humans would reach individual capabilities which would make states meaningless.

Communist formation is a natural product of development. So it would simply grow out from what we have now.
It is why Soviets failed in the end. You cannot really skip steps even if your intentions are good.
 

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It could be. Or not.

Firstly, there is no real need to indefinitely copy itself because there is no practical purpose in that. Just ask your self - would you populate your surroundings by copies of yourself if you can? I'm for sure not. So why a being which probably not have human body in recognizable form anymore would have a biological urge to procreate by multipling itself?

Yes, why would you want multiple individuals who have the same goals and are completely trustworthy. I can think of no reason someone would want that.

And once you have one...

Secondly, it is questionable that you can actually 'copy' a human mind. I don't think that is is possible to separate 'software' from 'hardware' in that case. And even if you do that you will receive not a copy but entirely different being as the result. It is why I didn't mention uploads at all but called it a 'distributed consciousness'. You can add 'blocks' to it, to increase the functionality or to give it presence in some other area, but you cannot really copy it because you will receive another 'person' in the end and it would probably require the creation of separate piece of specialized hardware aka 'human brain'.

Your premise was 'this is possible'.

So? Firstly it would simply compensate to the current population aging in the developed society and after some sort of balance point would be reached birth control will happen. Simple as that. Or maybe space colonization.

That doesn't happen in any other species. Unless you legally regulate birth, it will inevitably happen in humans.

It is not like capitalist economy never encountered artificially created 'crashes' or simple 'hiccups'. Any possible system could be abused and there are plenty of mechanism that prevent or stop such abuses.
For example in social credit terms - imagine a guy who was all nice and productive during his life and amassed huge amounts of 'credit' by doing useful stuff. And at some point he gone bad for some reason and started to use his credit to do meaningless or even harmful stuff.How the society would react? How do you react to a person who behave like an asshole? You ignore him. How do you react to a person who is abusive asshole? You stop socializing with him altogether. How do you react towards a person who behave like a violent asshole? You call a police on him.
It is the same in a communist society. You prevent the access to a stuff which is limited either by amount or by throughput? If you have reasons for that, if you are trusted enough - you can do it. For some time. If you abuse it? Well, it is the reason why state-less society is much futher away.

'Do not be an asshole' would be probably one of the main principles of such society.

In case you haven't noticed that results in tremendous amount of fighting over what counts as an asshole and everyone declares their enemies are assholes. Social regulation cannot solve coordination issues.

With only cash you will be looked down as an 'upstart' in such societies at best. And yes, it indeed involve trust, it involve personal relations.

Of course, but they still are willing to deal with you.

They are. Even more - wants are based on what we told to want by society around us. Wants beyond very basic ones aren't inherent or objective they are subjective and modifiable. Why do you think advertisement is long surpassed simple information role and now aimed to literally 'force' you to want to buy this thing? It is social programming pure and simple. And there are different ways to use social programming.

You have obviously never heard of 'keeping up with the Jones'.

Yeah, so? You want to live with the best and brightest of the communist society? Be one of the best and brightest. The only thing that changes here is the definition of who is 'the best and the brightest'.

And how do you show you are the best and brightest? You inevitably get people working and competing and changing the name of the currency from cash to social credit doesn't change what people are doing.

And I cannot think about anything which prevents nations from existing at the communist formation. There is no need to have a world government under communist system than under a capitalist one. Layered government system would be a thing until, as I said, humans would reach individual capabilities which would make states meaningless.

Communist formation is a natural product of development. So it would simply grow out from what we have now.
It is why Soviets failed in the end. You cannot really skip steps even if your intentions are good.

I'm pretty sure having restrictions on freedom of movement goes against pure communism. All your solutions seem to be 'do capitalism but with a different name'. Changing the labels changes nothing.
 

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Yes, why would you want multiple individuals who have the same goals and are completely trustworthy. I can think of no reason someone would want that.
Why do you think 'an upload' or ideal clone would have same goals and be trustworthy? I'm pretty much sure that the opposite would be true as one of the main goals of a human being is individuality, so the person surrounded by copies would have under insane pressure to be as much different as it would be possible.

Your premise was 'this is possible'.
Distributed consciousness and human uploads are two entirely different things.

That doesn't happen in any other species. Unless you legally regulate birth, it will inevitably happen in humans.
Human is only species on the planet that have sapience. Humans aren't regulated by natural evolution anymore. The thing that mainly effects human behavior and reproductive patterns is not nature but social environment. So I do not see any reason to say 'if it happens with animals, then it will happen with humans'. There is no animal that is similar to humans.

In case you haven't noticed that results in tremendous amount of fighting over what counts as an asshole and everyone declares their enemies are assholes. Social regulation cannot solve coordination issues.
Social standards could be defined in the same fashion as laws. Human communities have mutually agreeable rules all the time. It is another thing that many people apparently do not understand - we all live in the period after communication revolution and society still didn't recognize and incorporate all the consequences of that.

Of course, but they still are willing to deal with you.
Sometimes, sometimes not. As I said previously - 'cronyism' is what happening in any known economical system.

You have obviously never heard of 'keeping up with the Jones'.
American culture is a product of massive advertisement for decades. Russian culture do not have the same thing on the same scale. And what of it is actually appeared in the last decades is the result of a exposure to American culture. So it is not something universal or inevitable. It is social programming. And you can socially program people in different ways.

And how do you show you are the best and brightest? You inevitably get people working and competing...
And this is bad how? There is something that prevent competition and working under communist system?

I'm pretty sure having restrictions on freedom of movement goes against pure communism.
Firstly, pure communism is stateless.
Secondly, you can have nation states without restrictions of freedom of movement (see EU).
Thirdly, you can have restrictions of movement anyway because restrictions happens. Market regulation is against 'capitalism' in the same fashion for example.

All your solutions seem to be 'do capitalism but with a different name'. Changing the labels changes nothing.
Yeah, of course society in which a person have no need to work to survive and where means of production aren't restricted by private ownership is of course 'a capitalism under different name' because you know having a some from of currency is what define 'capitalism'. Which is why feudal stage or ancient slavery didn't have currencies... Oh, they had...
 

Henry IX

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That doesn't happen in any other species. Unless you legally regulate birth, it will inevitably happen in humans.

This does not appear to be currently true. One of the key things that occurs as education and wealth increase is that birth rates decrease. In most of the western world birth rates are bellow replacement level. Humans do not appear to have a significant biological drive to have children, however, we have a strong drive to have sex and in a pre-birth control world this is sufficient to ensure a high level of fecundity. The major factors that controls the number of children a woman has are a socio-economic, only a small proportion of the variation is caused individual differences. As such one can predict that in the future of plenty the birth rates will be low.

This is not say I agree with CruelDwarf, Marxism has two serious issues - the historical basis that Marx postulated are demonstrably false (e.g Asiatic modes of production) and Didactic Materialism has some serious philosophical problems (lack of evidence, theoretical inconsistencies). This, to me, invalidates Marxism without any need to refer to the failed experiment of Leninist vanguard communism.
 

SDSkinner

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Why do you think 'an upload' or ideal clone would have same goals and be trustworthy? I'm pretty much sure that the opposite would be true as one of the main goals of a human being is individuality, so the person surrounded by copies would have under insane pressure to be as much different as it would be possible.

Twins exist. It turns out that there is a limit to how much people want to diverge from others. Of course if you make copies of an adult, there is going to be alot less divergence.

As for same goals... unless you believe in souls, the copy has the exact same goals as the original.

Distributed consciousness and human uploads are two entirely different things.

Uploads are copies. I'm not seeing how you can distribute your intelligence in many places without copying.

Human is only species on the planet that have sapience. Humans aren't regulated by natural evolution anymore. The thing that mainly effects human behavior and reproductive patterns is not nature but social environment. So I do not see any reason to say 'if it happens with animals, then it will happen with humans'. There is no animal that is similar to humans.

Humans are still regulated by evolution. The fact we see it happening right now is pretty strong evidence for that.

Social standards could be defined in the same fashion as laws. Human communities have mutually agreeable rules all the time. It is another thing that many people apparently do not understand - we all live in the period after communication revolution and society still didn't recognize and incorporate all the consequences of that.

Social standards similar to law? Do you know how complex the law code is? Having a system that requires experts to understand and still has people arguing over the rules isn't an improvement over the status quo.

American culture is a product of massive advertisement for decades. Russian culture do not have the same thing on the same scale. And what of it is actually appeared in the last decades is the result of a exposure to American culture. So it is not something universal or inevitable. It is social programming. And you can socially program people in different ways.

The problem with that claim is it is unfalsifiable; you can blame everything on social programming and not have any predictions different from any other explanation.

And this is bad how? There is something that prevent competition and working under communist system?

It means your system is exactly the same as capitalism but with different labels.

Firstly, pure communism is stateless.

You are still going to have police.

Secondly, you can have nation states without restrictions of freedom of movement (see EU).
Thirdly, you can have restrictions of movement anyway because restrictions happens. Market regulation is against 'capitalism' in the same fashion for example.

Look, if you don't have freedom of movement it isn't really a communist utopia. If you do have freedom of movement, people can pillage by just getting enough new voters.

Yeah, of course society in which a person have no need to work to survive and where means of production aren't restricted by private ownership is of course 'a capitalism under different name' because you know having a some from of currency is what define 'capitalism'. Which is why feudal stage or ancient slavery didn't have currencies... Oh, they had...

Except your definitions when questioned are exactly the same as under capitalism! Instead of business owners having to deal with anti-trust laws it is citizens having to deal with social demands. Instead of not having to work because vital needs are meet... you don't have to work because vital needs are meet. Decentralizing power structures does not make a glorious utopia- it results in lots of unskilled and incompetent individuals making decisions and screwing up.

This does not appear to be currently true. One of the key things that occurs as education and wealth increase is that birth rates decrease.

There is a rather massive confounding variable you are ignoring there.

In most of the western world birth rates are bellow replacement level. Humans do not appear to have a significant biological drive to have children, however, we have a strong drive to have sex and in a pre-birth control world this is sufficient to ensure a high level of fecundity. The major factors that controls the number of children a woman has are a socio-economic, only a small proportion of the variation is caused individual differences. As such one can predict that in the future of plenty the birth rates will be low.

Do I need to explain population dynamics?

You have a country. Lets call it America.
99% of the population has a fertility rate of 2; they decrease in size every generation
1% of the population has a fertility rate of 4.2; they double in size every generation

A generation is 25 years; in a century 16% of the population will be from members of the latter group.

We do have that group in the US; the Amish number 300,000, have a fertility rate of 6.5 and a retention rate of 90%.

Of course even ignoring the Amish, individuals more prone to having children will gradually become a larger portion of the existing population. As long as there is differential fertility, this is inevitable.
 

Henry IX

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Do I need to explain population dynamics?

You have a country. Lets call it America.
99% of the population has a fertility rate of 2; they decrease in size every generation
1% of the population has a fertility rate of 4.2; they double in size every generation

A generation is 25 years; in a century 16% of the population will be from members of the latter group.

We do have that group in the US; the Amish number 300,000, have a fertility rate of 6.5 and a retention rate of 90%.

Of course even ignoring the Amish, individuals more prone to having children will gradually become a larger portion of the existing population. As long as there is differential fertility, this is inevitable.

The reasons why women have more or less children are social not biological. Social position is not a trait selected for by Natural Selection. The Amish example is a perfect illustration of this. Amishness is not a biological trait.
 

SDSkinner

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The reasons why women have more or less children are social not biological. Social position is not a trait selected for by Natural Selection. The Amish example is a perfect illustration of this. Amishness is not a biological trait.

Religiousness and political identity are partially genetic. And Amishness is becoming a biological trait- a population that only mates inside itself and loses individuals who reject its ways will steadily become more genetically Amish over time.

And we can check this in the outside population. The factor you were overlooking was intelligence and personality. However there is a nice natural experiment- female PHds. In the past only the very best women became PHds- now it is open to a larger slice of smart women. Want to guess what happened to the fertility rate?
 
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Kovax

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.... And Amishness is becoming a biological trait- a population that only mates inside itself and loses individuals who reject its ways will steadily become more genetically Amish over time.

When a closed population develops its own blood type, and can only receive transfusions from another member of that group (example: some enclaves of Amish), it's not only on its way to becoming a biological trait, it's slowly heading toward a rapid evolution into another species within the same genus, over the course of only a few tens of thousands of years. I'm not going to wait around for it, though.

To clarify what krieger11b said, the Nazis showed the Soviets how to do "Derp tanks" with class, and without even a source of decent alloys to build them. What they ended up with was a rough compromise based on what they COULD make with the materials available (skewed slightly by the unrealistic demands of some Corporal playing "Supreme Leader"), rather than what they could design and then not produce. The major reliability problems with the Panther had already been "solved" from an engineering standpoint, but it wasn't possible to produce the "right" drive train components without certain specialty metals that were in short supply, so the "faulty" ones were created to more-or-less do the job with weaker and heavier parts using the basic steel on hand. When you can produce a dozen "cheap" parts that WILL eventually fail and need replacing, or have a tank sitting for lack of a part because you don't have the Chromium or other specialty metals to make it, an unreliable tank beats no tank. The same metallurgy issues were already beginning to have an effect on the formerly much more reliable Panzer IV and other designs, and on German equipment in general. The Panther and Tiger II were just the more blatant examples, since they placed more strain on their sub-standard components than the lighter models. At that point, the question is: do you build a new design and hope for a miracle, or stick with the old one that's guaranteed to lose the war eventually? Germany was in the awkward position of having few others choices other than to gamble at long odds, and lost.
 

nuarbnellaffej

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And we can check this in the outside population. The factor you were overlooking was intelligence and personality. However there is a nice natural experiment- female PHds. In the past only the very best women became PHds- now it is open to a larger slice of smart women. Want to guess what happened to the fertility rate?
Using this tiny slice of demographics as an argument against the vast body of statistics that show more developed countries tend to have lower birth rates, is pretty weak.
Now I know you won't, but you should just let this "debate" go man, you are way out of your depth. Hand waves/unsupported assertions is a very poor debate form.
@CruelDwarf thankyou for the interesting read, you have the patience of a saint btw.
 
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Broletariat90

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I think a lot of you guys are just way confused. Modern day Liberalism is just a copy of Nazism. And the Democrats gave money to the Nazis.
 
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AegonVLLI

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This whole debate is absurd. Back in the 1930's to be left or right wing wasn't a matter of policy (what you thought about the welfare state), but which side you came down on in a struggle for power between sectional interests. The definition of being left wing was supporting working-class organisations such as the labour movement and the international socialist movement, being right wing was the defence of monied interests, the Church etc.. That's why every single person in Europe in 1936 considered the Nazis right wing. It's only with the collapse over the last 40 years of these mass organisations able to mobilise political power that what is considered "left-wing" has become a matter of technocratic policy. All this confusion over where the Nazis lie on the political spectrum is rooted in using the same words in different ways than they were used a century ago, i.e. having an entirely different (post-modern) conception of politics based on a conflict between policy ideas that would be alien to the people of 30's Germany.
Not that simple. The Nazis/Fascists were anti-clerical, anti-capital and anti-royalist, the three major pillars of German/Italian right-wing politics. The also weren't fans of the military, while all those groups weren't pro-Nazi either. Fascism and National Socialism was a very unique blend of various different movements and political viewpoints...
 

nerd

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I think a lot of you guys are just way confused. Modern day Liberalism is just a copy of Nazism. And the Democrats gave money to the Nazis.
I was going to post a few photos of "Modern day Liberals", but I could not find any without forbidden symbols......so I will post this image instead.

kkk.jpeg