Some corrections to those dastardly Godwin boys

Sleight of Hand · Oct 31, 2012

Okay, first of all I'd like to thank Paradox for adding Veld's great list of new and corrected Saxon (and Cornish) characters in 1.07, as well as Voy's numerous fixes to the Scandinavian dynasties. These really add flavor to Northern Europe and are particularly useful to those who, like me, are very anal about complete family trees.

However, I do think the ignoble and underhanded house of Godwin could be improved somewhat. I'll be using this file as my template for character edits.

First of all, Sveyn Godwinson (Harold's elder brother, died 1052) had a son named Haakon. Now, sources on this character are scant but I do believe he was probably alive in 1066, based on three things: 1) the fact that he'd been brought back as a hostage from Normandy in 1064, and was still alive at that point; 2) that no mention is ever made of his death prior to the Conquest, when with him being the senior line Godwin (in primogeniture terms) it would surely have been common knowledge; and 3) for all the Godwins' flaws (and there were many), they do not appear to have practiced infanticide in the way that certain later dynasties did in order to 'narrow' the line of succession.

Haakon is mentioned on both Wikipedia and this useful source, so I think he ought to be included.

Code:

40423 = {
	name="Hacon"
	dynasty=756
	religion="catholic"
	culture="saxon"
	add_trait="legit_bastard"
	father=128
	1047.1.2 = {
		birth="1047.1.2"
	}
	1091.1.2 = {
		death="1091.1.2"
	}
}

Hacon is apparently an old English form of the Norwegian name Haakon, so we could use it here. You could add Hacon_Hakon to the Saxon name set, so it links with Håkan (Swedish) and Håkon (Norwegian).

I've used 40423 because although the first free ID is currently 40421, I've actually already used it in this post. I've made him a legitimized bastard because Sveyn was not allowed to marry Haakon's mother (assuming it was Eadgifu, Abbess of Leominster, and the dates would seem right) but in the Saxon tradition he should not be a true bastard.

I've made his death date up (unless someone else has a source for one), but a number of Godwins survived the Conquest and so it wouldn't be unusual for him to still be around at that point. Three of his cousins were in hiding in Ireland, for example.

Now, another bug I've noticed is that Tostig Godwinson's wife, Judith of Flanders, is missing her second husband, the infamous and amusingly-named Welf Welf. She's already the mother of their children, so should definitely be added:

Code:

1530 = {
	name="Welf"
	# AKA: Guelph
	dynasty=650
	martial=4
	diplomacy=5
	intrigue=8
	stewardship=5
	religion="catholic"
	culture="german"
	add_trait="lustful"
	add_trait="proud"
	add_trait="zealous"
	add_trait="bastard" #To avoid him inheriting Milano
	add_trait="skilled_tactician"
	father=1118
	mother=1529
	1035.1.1 = {
		birth="1035.1.1"
	}
	1066.1.1 = {
		employer=112600
	}
	1066.1.1 = {
		add_spouse=112602
	}
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1070.1.1 = {
		remove_spouse=112602
		add_spouse=363
	}[/COLOR]
	1101.11.9 = {
		death="1101.11.9"
	}
}

I have no idea when Welf married Ethelinde, but Wikipedia says they divorced in 1070 and he then married Judith, Tostig's widow. As I say, their children already have her set as their mother, so I assume them not being married is just an oversight.

The Godwins' birth and death dates could be made a little more accurate, too. In order of birth they should (probably) be:

Godwine / ID 120

Code:

	993.1.2={
		birth="993.1.2"
	}
	1053.4.15={
		death="1053.4.15"
	}

And for his children:

Edith / ID 121

Code:

	1020.1.2={
		birth="1020.1.2"
	}
	1075.12.18={
		death="1075.12.18"
	}

Sveyn / ID 128

Code:

	1021.1.2={
		birth="1021.1.2"
	}
	1052.9.29={
		death="1052.9.29"
	}

Harold / ID 122

Code:

	1022.1.2={
		birth="1022.1.2"
	}
	1066.10.14={
		death="1066.10.14" # Hastings
	}

Tostig / ID 124

Code:

	1025.1.2={
		birth="1025.1.2"
	}
	1066.9.25={
		death="1066.9.25" # Stamford Bridge
	}

Gyrth / ID 132

Code:

	1032.1.2={
		birth="1032.1.2"
	}
	1066.10.14={
		death="1066.10.14" # Hastings
	}

Now, here between Gyrth and Leofwine we can add a new character, the possible missing Godwin brother, Ælfgar:

Ælfgar / ID 40425

Code:

40425 = {
	name="Ælfgar"
	dynasty=756
	religion="catholic"
	culture="saxon"
	add_trait="chaste"
	add_trait="detached_priest"
	father=120
	mother=101534
	1035.1.2 = {
		birth="1035.1.2"
	}
	1066.1.5 = {
		employer=91173 # Bishop of Rheims
	}
	1078.1.2 = {
		death="1078.1.2"
	}
}

Again, the death date is made up here, but that is true for many characters. I don't see a problem with adding Ælfgar as he is specifically mentioned in Vitalis' annals of the Godwin family, and we're generally content to use his sources for other characters.

Leofwine / ID 130

Code:

	1038.1.2 = {
		birth="1038.1.2"
	}
	1066.10.14={
		death="1066.10.14" # Hastings
	}

Wulfnoth / ID 85013

Code:

	1040.1.2={
		birth="1040.1.2"
	}
	1094.2.1={
		death="1094.2.1"
	}

Wulfnoth was released by William the Conqueror on his deathbed (along with a number of other high-profile prisoners) and was moved to Salisbury under house arrest, where he died in February 1094.

The youngest existing Godwin child, Gytha, has the wrong name as well as dates:

Gunhilda / ID 161274

Code:

161274 = {
	name="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]Gunhilda[/COLOR]"
	female=yes
	dynasty=756
	religion="catholic"
	culture="saxon"
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]add_trait="celibate"[/COLOR]
	father=120
	mother=101534
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1041.1.2={
		birth="1041.1.2"
	}
	1087.8.24={
		death="1087.8.24"
	}[/COLOR]
}

Apparently she took a vow of chastity and moved between Denmark and Flanders, where she died in August 1087.

And a final new character, Ælfgifu, who died just before the start of the game:

Ælfgifu / ID 40427

Code:

40427 = {
	name="Ælfgifu"
	female=yes
	dynasty=756
	religion="catholic"
	culture="saxon"
	father=120
	mother=101534
	1043.1.2 = {
		birth="1043.1.2"
	}
	1065.11.2 = {
		death="1065.11.2"
	}
}

That should, I think, tidy up the Godwin clan a bit.

EDIT: Changed Haakon's name to Hacon and replaced a couple of duplicate IDs, which would have caused issues.

Voy · Oct 31, 2012

Good. It's fun that England have gained so much the past patch because of us in the community.

Sleight of Hand · Oct 31, 2012

Indeed.

Also, can Veld or someone tell me why Eadgar the Atheling's age was increased in 1.07? He's around 16 now, when most sources seem to agree that he was in his early teens, and so probably about 13 or so when William invaded.

I think his age was correct before, so I'm not sure why it was changed. I for one never reported it.

Sleight of Hand · Oct 31, 2012

Another couple of minor suggestions which will improve the 1066 setup:

Firstly, after Tostig's defection Gyrth was Harold's eldest surviving brother. He was a good soldier and asked Harold if he could lead the charge against William; Harold turned him down and was famously killed at the head of the Saxon army. Gyrth and Leofwine were also killed during the battle.

So, for Gyrth (ID 132) I would suggest this little addition:

Code:

	1066.1.1 = {
		employer=122
		give_job_title = job_marshal
	}

Similarly, Archbishop Stigand was one of the most important Saxon nobles alongside the Godwin and Hwicce brothers, as well as being the leading member of the Witan and the head of the Church in England. He was excommunicated in 1066, however, and apparently had been by no fewer than five successive popes. Apparently this was the reason he wasn't allowed to actually crown William, though he was present at the coronation.

So, for Stigand (ID 5604) we could do this:

Code:

	1066.1.1 = {
		add_trait="excommunicated"
		employer=122
		give_job_title = job_spiritual
	}

Finally, we can tidy up the claims for the two great northern earldoms of Northumbria and Mercia.

Tostig (ID 124) already has some claims, but they're a mess as they include random counties, which I've already mentioned before.

I would suggest giving him:

Code:

	1066.1.1={
		add_claim = d_northumberland
		add_claim = d_york
	}

That roughly corresponds to Northumbria, which was a large tract of land (and former kingdom) covering the North East.

Also, we should give Hacon (ID 40423, above) claims on Mercia, as his father Sveyn was the last Godwin earl of Mercia before the Hwicce got it.

Code:

	1066.1.1={
		add_claim = d_lancaster
		add_claim = d_hereford
	}

Finally, we should give Eadwine of Hwicce (ID 5644) his second duchy, Hereford.

d_hereford.txt

Code:

1066.1.1={
	liege="k_england"
	#law = agnatic_succession
	#law = succ_primogeniture
}
1066.1.1={
	holder=5644 #Eadwin
}
1072.1.1={
	holder=0 # Eadwin's lands confiscated by William
}

This is just a copy of d_lancaster.txt, which is currently Eadwine's only duchy. It makes sense for him to have both because he already controls all of its de jure land (and more) and he will always create it as soon as he gets enough gold anyway. His brother Morcar is duke of both Northumberland and York, so in that sense it's only fair that they both have two duchies. It's pretty realistic, too, as Mercia was a hugely rich and prestigious area.

That should do it. No other changes should be needed as Eadwine's vassals will still be a vassal of d_lancaster, and d_hereford will disappear at the same time as William becomes duke of Lancaster. So, in that sense it's not changing balance whatsoever, it's just giving him what he should have anyway, like when Leofwine was made duke of Kent in 1.07.

Veldmaarschalk · Nov 3, 2012

Has been reported.

The youngest existing Godwin child, Gytha, has the wrong name as well as dates:

Gunhilda / ID 161274

Gytha is not the same character as Gunhilda, the latter one isn't in the game. The first one is a 'possible' daughter married to Raoul de Valois (40418), count of Hereford. As I already explained once in another thread.

Sleight of Hand · Nov 16, 2012

I will bump this thread because although the first page of changes were added, the second was missed or ignored. (I don't know which).

So, a few issues I should point out:

~ Eadwin (ID 5644; should be Eadwine) dies on 1071.1.1, but he holds c_lancaster and d_lancaster until 1072.1.1. I've not tested it, but presumably this means if you load up between these two dates then these titles will be empty? Probably needs fixing anyway, as it looks like it's unintended.

~ Welf Guelph's (ID 1530) second marriage wasn't added. It's in the first post of this thread and seems to be entirely historical.

~ Though not a bug per se, Edith (ID 121) and Sveyn (ID 128) Godwinson have the same birth date (1021.1.1) but are not twins. Perhaps make Edith a year older? Similarly, Gyrth (ID 132) and Gytha (ID 161274) do as well (1032.1.1) so it may be worth putting them a year apart as well. I don't think any of Godwine's children were twins, so all of their births should be during separate years.

~ Eadgar the Aetheling (ID 112) is too old. His birth date should probably be about 1053 or 1054, but no earlier. I mentioned this to Veld and he said he didn't know who changed the date or why, but 1050 is certainly too early. Most sources referring to Eadgar state that he was a child or young teen during the crisis of 1066, which is probably why he was never taken seriously as a candidate. He should certainly not be over 16 and able to lead armies.

~ Some name corrections according to the Saxon culture file:

Gunhild (ID 129) is spelled Gunhilda.
Ældgyth isn't in the file, and many names use it. Ealdgyth is though, so perhaps add a Ældgyth_Edith name link for them?
Several characters are named Ealdred, which should be Ealdræd.
There are a few characters named Siward, which is the more common form of Sigeweard, a name in the culture file. Choose one and replace the names.
As mentioned above, the character named Eadwin should be spelled Eadwine.
Alfred the Great (ID 7627) should be spelled Ælfraed (which is in the culture file) and linked with _Alfred.
Eadred (ID 33351) should be spelled Eadraed.
Edmund (ID 32703) should be spelled Eadmund.
Gospatrick (ID 85018) has a 'k' at the end, whilst the other two examples of this name do not. Just go with Gospatric.
I have no idea who Adelisa (ID 161451) is, but that certainly isn't a Saxon name.
Edith/Editha/Eadgyth could be made Ældgyth for consistency's sake.
Egbert (ID 33354) wants to be spelled Ecgbeorht, as in the name list.
Finally, I think the Eadward/Eadweard split is kind of odd. It's possible to have a Saxon king named Eadweard I, even though there's already been an Eadward III. You could then get a Norman or Plantagenet named Eadweard II. I realize it's to avoid the historical Plantagenets having the wrong regnal numbers, but the best thing to do would be to just not bother linking _Edward for Saxon culture at all.

I will post my suggested version of the Saxon name set here; it's just 1.08 with my suggestions highlighted.

Code:

saxon = {
		graphical_culture = saxongfx
		
		color = { 0.8 0.3 0.3 }
		
		male_names = {
			Ælaf_Olaf Ælle Æthelbald Æthelbeorht[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Albert[/COLOR] Æthelfrith Æthelhere Æthelmær[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Adémar[/COLOR] Æthelræd Æthelric Æthelstan Æthelweard Æthelwine[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Alwin[/COLOR] Æthelweald
			Æthelwulf[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Adolf[/COLOR] Ælbeorht_Albert Ealdræd Ealdwine[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Alwin[/COLOR] Ealdwulf Ælfgar Ælfraed[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Alfred[/COLOR] Ælfwald Ælfweard Ælfwine[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Alwin[/COLOR] Baldræd Beorn_Beorn Beornræd 
			Beornwulf Burghræd [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Cearl_Charles[/COLOR] Ceolwulf Coenred[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Konrad[/COLOR] [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Cerdic_Caradog[/COLOR] Coenwulf Cuthbeorht Cynewulf Eadbeorht Eadfrid Eadgar[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Edgar[/COLOR] Eadmund[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Edmund[/COLOR] Eadraed Eadric Eadulf[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Adolf[/COLOR]
			Eadweald Eadweard[COLOR="#FF0000"]_Edward[/COLOR] Eadwig Eadwine[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Edwin[/COLOR] [COLOR="#FF0000"]Ealdræd[/COLOR] Ealdmund Eanbeorht Eanfrith Eanhere Eardwulf Earled Ecgbeorht Ecgfrith
			Eormenric Estmund Godwine [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Gyrth[/COLOR] [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Hacon_Hakon[/COLOR] [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Harold_Harold Herewald Hereward[/COLOR] Hlothere[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Lothair[/COLOR] Leofric Leofwine [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Magnus_Magnus[/COLOR] Maldræd Morcar_Marcus Offa[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Uffe[/COLOR] Oshere Osræd Osric Osulf [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Petre_Peter Rædwulf_Rudolf[/COLOR]
			Osweald Oswine Hrodbeorht_Robert Sæbert Sælræd Sæweald Sæxbald Sæxræd Sigebeorht Sigehelm Sigeræd Sigeric Sighere [COLOR="#FF0000"]Sigeweard[/COLOR] [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Siward_Sigurd Skuli_Skule[/COLOR]
			Stigand [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Sveyn_Sven[/COLOR] Swæfræd Swithelm Swithræd Thoræd Thurcytel[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Torkel[/COLOR] Uhtred Ulf_Ulf [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Waltheof[/COLOR] Wiglaf Wihtræd [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Wistan[/COLOR] [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Wulf_Ulf[/COLOR] Wulfhere Wulfnoth [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Wulfstan[/COLOR]
		}
		female_names = {
			[COLOR="#FF8C00"]Ældgyth_Edith[/COLOR] Ælfgifu Ælflæd Ælfthryth Ælfwyn Æthelflæd Æthelhild Æthelswyth [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Æthelreda_Æthelreda[/COLOR] Æthelthryth[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Æthelreda[/COLOR] Agatha_Agatha [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Cristina_Christina[/COLOR] Eadflæd Eadgifu [COLOR="#FF0000"]Eadgyth[/COLOR] Eadhburh Eadhild 
			[COLOR="#FF0000"]Eadwyn[/COLOR] Ealdgyth[COLOR="#FF8C00"]_Edith[/COLOR] Ecgfrida Ecgwyn Eadhild Eadgyth_Edith Ælfleda Ælfrida Ælfwyn Godgifu Gunhilda_Gunhild Gytha [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Helga_Helga Hextilda[/COLOR] [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Margaret_Margaret[/COLOR] [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Maud_Matilda[/COLOR] [COLOR="#FF8C00"]Octreda[/COLOR] Sigrid_Sigrid Wulfhild 
			Wulfthryth
		}
		from_dynasty_prefix = "of "
		male_patronym = "son"
		[COLOR="#FF8C00"]female_patronym = "sdohtor"[/COLOR]
		prefix = no # The patronym is added as a suffix

		modifier = default_culture_modifier
	}

I removed Eadwyn as it's probably just a variation of Edwin/Eadwine, which is a masculine name. I'm not aware of it being a feminine Saxon name, but I could be wrong. Is it sourced anywhere? I've added a number of missing links and some common Saxon/Norse names which should be linked. I'm pretty tired but that should be okay. If anyone spots any mistakes, let me know.

This is the last time I'll post about the Saxons.

(It may be worth running this thru a text alphabetizer as I found some duplicates...)

EDIT: There are some great lists of Anglo-Saxon names/patronyms and information about them here, here (this can be read online as an e-book) and here (cognates for popular names).

Veldmaarschalk · Nov 19, 2012

The male patronomic you are suggesting now is different from the one you suggested before ?

Sleight of Hand · Nov 19, 2012

Veldmaarschalk said:
The male patronomic you are suggesting now is different from the one you suggested before ?

Well my assumption was that Paradox didn't want to change it, so I stuck with 'son', though I think the correct set would actually be:

Code:

		from_dynasty_prefix = "of "

		male_patronym = "s sunu"
		female_patronym = "s dohtor"
		prefix = no

It's up to Paradox, though. I think 'son' is just a modern contraction of 's sunu' and used for convenience.

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Some corrections to those dastardly Godwin boys

Sleight of Hand

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Voy

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Veldmaarschalk

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