Some clarity in WIKI on Practicals and Theory - Germany and others, but mostly Germany

[Poopfaust]

rover53 corrected me on this. The GUI for Production does not account for the Industrial Policy and the Industrial Efficiency factors.

Here is some potential useless analysis/observations I discovered while reviewing Practicals and Theory as comparted to the WIKI.

1) Construction is NOT affected by Theory, only by Practicals.
(a) WIKI has 5 as the Breakeven. Germany only has a few Practicals below level 5.
(b) any improvements over the Breakeven level of 5 really do not have that much of an impact for CONSTRUCTION. In summary, PRACTICALS for GERMANY should NOT INFLUENCE your CONSTRUCTION decisions during pre-war period because the changes you could create would have almost zero impact on Construction (I will explain below).

2) Theory and Research (NOT Construction)
(a) each Tech has a different percentage mix of what influences it. It draws from the Practicals and Theory and Engineering and Doctrines and Focuses and most of all COMBAT EXPERIENCE.., EVERYTHING you see at the bottom of the Tech window.

(b) there is a different table used for Research. The percentages in the table below are uniformly applied to all of the variables at the bottom of Tech screen; a 5 in Practical, is the same for Theory, Engineering, Practical.., etc..,

Tech Variable	Malus/Bonus to RESEARCH	special
0​	-50%​	could not prove value for zero
1​	-40%​
2​	-30%​
3​	-20%​
4​	-10%​
5​	0%​
6-9​	0​	guessing a 4.5% interval
10​	22.5%​
11-14​	?​	guessing a 1.8% interval
15​	31.7%​

What you can deduce from this table is that level 5 is the Breakeven for Research and Germany, not so much a big deal. But what is a big deal is that at level 15 it is 31.7% as opposed to Construction level 15 which is .., something around 11.2%. And we also do not know if beyond level 15 in Research continues to rise (possibly not capped?).

In conclusion, we now see how for Research there appears to be a GREAT REASON to increase ALL of the numbers at the bottom of the Tech window which includes Practicals and Theory and all of the other fields.

An additional more interesting observation of all this mess is that Combat Experience and Doctrines influence the lions share of Research (some percentages for Tech are 70% Combat or Doctrine). And the only way to measurably increase these is through combat. Doctrine research helps a lot with advancing Armor and Infantry techs, but actual COMBAT influence the big boys, Industry and Doctrines. So to wrap this paragraph up, once you start fighting, the majority of the important and expensive research will be much much much easier.

This was probably stupid to post this, but I spent the time to figure it out. Take care.

 

[roverS3]

I'm pretty sure you're missing something where practicals are concerned. In my Soviet Union game Militia practical is currently 4,9, and I'm getting a 21.7% reduction in building cost. Capital Ship Practical is 0,0, and that has a 27,5% increase in building cost. Heavy Aircraft Practical is 15,6 and building cost reduction is 38.9%.

Of course, a bunch of production efficiency bonuses get included in these numbers:
Heavy Industry Emphasis: 5%
7 levels of Industrial Efficiency: 17,5 % (2,5%/level)
So, deducting 22,5% from 21,7% means that you get - 0,8% for a practical of 4,9, or 0% for a practical of 5.
Doing the same for the other two examples: -27,5% - 22,5% gives me -50% for a practical of 0. 38.9% - 22,5% gives me 16.4% for 15,6, or slightly over 15% for a practical of 15.

I opened a new 1936 game as Italy. Inf practical is 5, and the building cost reduction is 5%. If you add in the 2 levels of Industrial Efficiency Italy starts with, that gives a grand total of 0%. The Industrial Policy is Mixed Industry, so no efficiency bonus there.

Your stats suggest that there is some kind of negative efficiency bonus going on.

Ok, I tagged to Germany to find out what it is:
Germany starts with the Consumer Product Orientation Industrial Policy (-15% production efficiency)
It does start with 4 levels of Industrial Efficiency (+10% efficiency.)
That means that all your numbers are low by 5% when considering the impact of practical regardless of IC efficiency modifiers. The wiki is, in fact, correct.

The crux of the matter is that all Industrial Efficiency modifiers are applied to the effective build cost reduction, which is stated in the production screen. It's a bit confusing because the tooltip only mentions practical and not IC efficiency.

 

[Poopfaust]

RoverS3, thank you for responding, I am sure that was an aggravating post.

The GUI did not have the Industrial Policy nor the Industrial Efficiency.., correct? Awesome and thank you. I am glad I stuck that first sentence in my post that my data is only as good as the GUI.

I have three questions whenever you have time.

I too opened a 1936 Italy game.
1) Am I correct in that you feel that Negative modifiers do not exist? Perhaps I misunderstood your response. If so, please look at all of the Italian 2.5 Practicals, they all have -20% modifiers. And for Research, check out all of the Research for any variables at either 2.5 or 0; that have -25% and -50%.
2) If I am correct in that the -20% modifiers (2.5 Practical) add production time, that does not tie into my Construction table nor the WIKI table. My table would be -30% and WIKI would be -25%. Any help appreciated.

3) Do you agree with my notes/information in #3 on Research?

Based on your responses, I will either edit or delete my post above. For the millionth time, THANK YOU!

 

[roverS3]

1) Am I correct in that you feel that Negative modifiers do not exist? Perhaps I misunderstood your response. If so, please look at all of the Italian 2.5 Practicals, they all have -20% modifiers. And for Research, check out all of the Research for any variables at either 2.5 or 0; that have -25% and -50%.

That comment was about negative IC efficiency bonuses, and I had forgotten just how bad the IC efficiency penalty of Consumer Product Orientation is.

2) If I am correct in that the -20% modifiers (2.5 Practical) add production time, that does not tie into my Construction table nor the WIKI table. My table would be -30% and WIKI would be -25%. Any help appreciated.

It's basically a double negative, the full sentence is '... Practical reduces building cost and time by -20%'. So that would add 20% to the production time, and 20% to the cost per day.
Let's get an example to check whether that's correct (all figures for a 1936 start). Canada and Argentina's Infantry techs and doctrines are identical, so they are the perfect comparison for cost:
Canada has a production bonus of -15% (5.0 Inf practical), an Inf brigade costs 2.81 IC over 114 days. 2,81 / 1,15 = 2,44 _ 114 / 1,15 = 99
Argentina has a production bonus of -40% (2.5 Inf practical), an Inf brigade costs 3.40 IC over 138 days. 3,40 / 1,4 = 2,43 _ 138 / 1,4 = 99
As you can see the bonus applies to both cost and time. This has a compounding effect:
The 'base cost' in this case is about 2.44*99 = 241.6 IC.days
Canada's cost is 2,81*114 = 320.3 IC.days or 1.33 times base cost.
Argentina's cost is 3,4*138 = 469.2 IC.days or 1.94 times base cost
Practical is way more powerful where production is concerned than you give it credit for.

3) Do you agree with my notes/information in #3 on Research?

Your notes on research look correct to me. The one thing to keep in mind as a major with limited research capacity, is that it can be much easier to increase practical knowledge than it is to increase theoretical knowledge. Theory techs are rarely worth it, unless you're specialising in a particular field of research with very expensive research. Basically if you're not trying to rush Nuclear research ahead of time, it's probably not worth it and you're better off researching something that's actually useful and that will give you +1 of the desired theory anyway. The best example for this is that the 'Infantry Warfare Research' is almost always more expensive than 'Small Arms'.

 

[Poopfaust]

Hey Rover, again – Thank you.

I am going to turn my brain off and start playing.

As far as Practicals, when you get over 5, they are not that important. In the negative zone, each point represents 10%. Once you get over 5, the increases are only 1.25%, then they become even smaller after that.., a Diminishing Returns thing. You and I are on same page.

Most of all, thank you for providing me that extremely valuable information on the GUI not taking into account the Industrial Policy nor the Industrial Efficiency,

Have a super great week.

 

[roverS3]

I am going to turn my brain off and start playing.

Yes, that's how it goes. You figure out how it works, internalise as much of it as possible, and then you let it go and just play. You'll automatically start making better decisions.

As far as Practicals, when you get over 5, they are not that important. In the negative zone, each point represents 10%. Once you get over 5, the increases are only 1.25%, then they become even smaller after that.., a Diminishing Returns thing. You and I are on same page.

Up to 10 you still get a decent return, but past that point it starts to go downhill rather quickly.

You're welcome, we've all had to figure this stuff out, and benefited from others who have done research and taken the time to explain what they found. I'm sure you would do the same for someone who's trying to get to grips with HOI4.

Don't forget to have fun while you play and have a wonderful week.