Some change to Anatolia

[Dutchman251]

I think Anatolia needs to be changed a bit. It is the goal of developers to provide the Ottomans with the opportunity to blob, which it does (nearly) every game, if you do not intervene. Therefore, Paradox granted them cores on all the remaining independent beyliks. Though this is not historical, I am okay with it. Nevertheless, if you come and kill the Ottomans, their cores remain in all of modern Turkey, because they are the primary nation of it. But at 1444 there were still a lot of the original Hellenized people living in Turkey, though they converted to Islam. Therefore, I think there should be more Pontic Greek culture provinces in Anatolia, especially since they created an achievement for Trebizond. This would expire some more of the Ottoman cores, which I would really like. I actually prefer to remove the Ottomans from the map as much as possible, without pointless culture converting. So maybe the game should start with, let's say 10 provinces, Pontic Greek culture, and with some event to convert them to Turkish culture if the Ottomans rule them still, with a MTTH of 40 years. Or we could split Turkish culture, though I doubt if there is any reason to do so. What do you think?

 

[PiriReis]

Nope.
1. Those cores are historical, go search pre-Timur hit in Anatolia.
2. Pontic is already in Trebizond, having too many Greek provinces makes Trebizond and Byzantium more likely to appear and weaken the Turks.

 

[Grand Historian]

Nope.
1. Those cores are historical, go search pre-Timur hit in Anatolia.

Not Dulkadir and Ramazan. And even then I doubt the Ottomans owned those provinces long enough for them to be truly considered cores. The Ottomans shouldn't even be the Primary Culture of Turkish at start date; they're just one of many (albeit the most powerful) of Turkish dynasties in Anatolia. What would happen if Karaman unified all the beyliks, including the Ottomans, and became the only nation with Turkish left? There should be an event that triggers when there's only one Turkish Beylik left that makes it the primary culture of Turkish.

2. Pontic is already in Trebizond, having too many Greek provinces makes Trebizond and Byzantium more likely to appear and weaken the Turks.

No, no it won't. Byzzies 9 times out of ten 10 appear in the former crusader states in the southern Mediterranean or in Theodosia, due to Catholic's negative heretic tolerance, not from the Ottoman Empire, and especially not without the player's help. Turning Sinope back to Pontic/Orthodox, like it was historically, will not unbalance the Turks. It's not only historical, but the Ottomans will probably just end up culture converting it anyways. That said, I think the OP is a bit delusional about the amount of Greek/Pontic provinces should be in Anatolia (10!?). The only other provinces I can see justifiably and feasibly turning into Greek/Pontic/Orthodox are Biga and Canik. Smyrna too, if the game took place before Timur's rampage, but even then all are unlikely.

 

[Duman]

Bayezid I conquered those lands in 1399 and unified Turkish states in Anatolia, it is the first unification. There will be 2nd unification a while later.
for your concerns about being primary nation for Turkish culture and what happens if Karaman unifies all beyliks, most of Turkish players suggested using the name " Turkey " for Ottomans.
In 1399 Ottoman beylik unites Turkish beyliks and becomes Turkey which is primary nation for Turkish, if lets say Karaman destroys Ottoman Turkey, they form Turkey (Karaman Turkey) which also makes them primary nation for Turkish.

This is the best solution but in Europe people seems to love name Ottoman and I wouldn't want to discuss the same thing here too.

 

[Dutchman251]

1. Those cores are certainly not historical. The Brittanica clearly states (http://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Ankara) that those Beys became vassals of the Otto's, and still had their own armies. So that means no cores in EU4.
2. Well, I don't have any population numbers available, nor think the Ottomans had an administration that was detailed enough to include ethnicity, but I guess that only Trebizond to have a Pontic Greek majority is not historical.

 

[ringhloth]

Turks and Byzantines should be in the same culture group. In 1444, the people of Anatolia had more in common with the Byzantines than they did the Turkmens.

Also, I'd rather see Ottomans than Turkey. It's not like Ming or Qing changes their name every time a dynasty comes into power.

1. Those cores are certainly not historical. The Brittanica clearly states (http://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Ankara) that those Beys became vassals of the Otto's, and still had their own armies. So that means no cores in EU4.
2. Well, I don't have any population numbers available, nor think the Ottomans had an administration that was detailed enough to include ethnicity, but I guess that only Trebizond to have a Pontic Greek majority is not historical.

Vassal in the real world has a large range of translations into EU4. It doesn't necessarily mean a dependent tag.

 

[Duman]

@Dutchman251

Vassal in history doesnt mean they should be represented as vassal ingame. Otherwise France, England, especially Lithuania and TIMURIDS should have countless vassals inside of their state. You can represent them perfect in CK2, but not in EU4. in CK2 terms there would be Karaman Bey under Ottoman Sultan's rule, in Ottoman Sultan's realm.

@ringhloth

Agreed. There should be Turko-Byzantine culture group.

 

[Dutchman251]

Well, the Ottomans ruled those vassals from basically 1390 till 1402, and I don't think that is long enough to be represented ingame with cores.

 

[happymix91]

Ottoman(Osman) or Karaman is just a name of ruling family. Europeans must know difference between 'France' and 'Ottoman'(also 'France' and 'Ming' as east asian nations have very tight relation with ruling family).

Nation system at Europa is right for Europe, but not for ROTW. So you should think differently with Ottoman at Europa. If Ottoman revived from ashes in Anatolian Turkish provinces, it is no more 'Ottoman', because it has another ruling family. Just treat it as another Turkish country, not Ottoman.

There is no meaning for primary country of Turkish culture in present nation system. Though it has name of 'Ottoman', it is not Ottoman. Ottoman after its demolish is just representing Turkish nation.

 

[grommile]

Well, the Ottomans ruled those vassals from basically 1390 till 1402, and I don't think that is long enough to be represented ingame with cores.

Coring own-culture provinces takes 18 months baseline.

 

[Clownie]

Not Dulkadir and Ramazan. And even then I doubt the Ottomans owned those provinces long enough for them to be truly considered cores. The Ottomans shouldn't even be the Primary Culture of Turkish at start date; they're just one of many (albeit the most powerful) of Turkish dynasties in Anatolia. What would happen if Karaman unified all the beyliks, including the Ottomans, and became the only nation with Turkish left? There should be an event that triggers when there's only one Turkish Beylik left that makes it the primary culture of Turkish.

Solution: make Turkey a formable nation. It's utterly bizarre that you can get Ottoman separatists as another beylik just because you're not the primary nation of Turkish.

 

[Grand Historian]

Solution: make Turkey a formable nation. It's utterly bizarre that you can get Ottoman separatists as another beylik just because you're not the primary nation of Turkish.

I was going for more of an event that makes you the primary nation, because traditionally Islamic countries are measured by their dynasties and not their ethnicities for so many reasons, but I agree that it's also a solution.

 

[Dutchman251]

I don't think there should be a formable Turkey tag. Nation-states are something that evolves after the Peace of Westphalia, and real European nationalism only starts in the 19th century. Turkish nationalists come clearly in later. But maybe there should be some decision like the "Proclaim kingdom of God" of the Pope, if you own all lands as one of the beyliks. That makes sense

 

[Duman]

Turkey isn't a simply nation state, Turkey is no different than Austria and Russia, who are also multicultural empires.
People tend to confuse Republic era with Imperial era, its really no different than Russia/Austria.

 

[Grand Historian]

I don't think there should be a formable Turkey tag. Nation-states are something that evolves after the Peace of Westphalia, and real European nationalism only starts in the 19th century. Turkish nationalists come clearly in later. But maybe there should be some decision like the "Proclaim kingdom of God" of the Pope, if you own all lands as one of the beyliks. That makes sense

A decision would be easier to implement than an event and take up less space than a new tag. It would also allow the Beyliks to keep their own flags.

 

[Legend92]

Well, the Ottomans ruled those vassals from basically 1390 till 1402, and I don't think that is long enough to be represented ingame with cores.

you cant represent historical vassals with eu4 game mechanics, for example france

what your suggestion for this?

 

[Dutchman251]

Well, those former Ottoman vassals are independent at the EU4 start date. Compare them with Burgundy, Brittany, Provence and Navarra, on which France does not have cores, either.
I have not the littlest problem with the beyliks that the Ottomans controlled in 1444 being fully integrated.

 

[Frungy78]

Exactly how far did the first Ottoman unification go? Did they go as far as Erzincan and Erzurum? I agree that Sinop should be Pontic.

 

[Grand Historian]

you cant represent historical vassals with eu4 game mechanics, for example france

what your suggestion for this?

Pre-1.12 France? That pretty much covered it for all intents and purposes. And a slight map revision.

 

[Dutchman251]

It went till Karaman and Candar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayezid_I But they were only vassals for a mere 12 years.
In game terms, Timur used 'Support independence' to liberate those vassals