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Oops no. I got confused because in my last two games in one had one province and in the other had been enterely swallowed by Adal.
Ok. So the original situation is that DEL has 757 (Somalia), 759 (Mudugh) and 760 (Mogadiscio).
In the desintegration of Adal it receives only one extra one, 755 (Afars).
Ok. So the original situation is that DEL has 757 (Somalia), 759 (Mudugh) and 760 (Mogadiscio).
In the desintegration of Adal it receives only one extra one, 755 (Afars).
So the problem seems very easy now.
Should Afars be for an ahistorically long-lasting Adal or should it be for an ahistorically large Mogadishu?
Perhaps we can find another person that cares enough to vote on this so we can break the tie.
Should Afars be for an ahistorically long-lasting Adal or should it be for an ahistorically large Mogadishu?
Perhaps we can find another person that cares enough to vote on this so we can break the tie.
What would really help immensely is if we could snag one of those Ethiopian tags I just let go and make it Ajuuran. I'd have no problems with that state owning all these refuse provinces. However, such would be unethical. 
Anyways, don't we generally do things by consensus / vote only when it because a high council matter?
Sure, but how do we reach consensus? Do I flip a coin and you trust the result?Garbon said:
As someone who's totally ignorant of the history of this part of the world that didn't involve the Portugese I have a question to ask. Do these provinces need to be owned by someone? Is it a big deal if we just leave them in the hands of the natives? Possibly the large, well-armed and very hostile natives?
Fodoron said:Sure, but how do we reach consensus? Do I flip a coin and you trust the result?
No, this looks like a matter that might need a vote.
sturmvogel said:
Bad idea. No matter what sort of natives we have there, we'll eventually end up with strange colonies.
There were people there, they were just disorganized and we don't have any tags to represent them. (the best plan would be to have Ajuran which had quite an influence in the area)
Hah! it did involve the Portuguese! Does the name Cristovaõ de Gama sound familiar? He was killed by the ruler of Adal after some exchange of insults prior to the battle, but his portuguese soldiers avenged him. That was the push that precipitated the desintegration of Adal.sturmvogel said:
It was native owned previously, but that only means that it is ahistorically colonized. The natives are only a problem for the human player, the AI cheats.
Garbon said:
Actually it wasn't disorganized at all, there were six distinct powers in the area:
- In the Nugal valley was the Majerteen, who would be under Ajuran domination until the 16th century, at which point they would break away and form the strongest post-Ajuran state in Somalia.
- In the Mudugh region is the Hiraab, who would be under Ajuran domination also until the 16th century, at which point they founded an Imamate based in Hobyo.
- In the south coast is the city-state of Maqdisho (Mogadishu) ruled by the descendants of Fakr ad Din and stalwart allies of the Ajuran. They ruled over Merka as well.
- Further south is the geritocracy of Brava, which also ruled over Cismayo.
- Inland in the south, and including northern Kenya, is the Galla (Oromo), who are locked in a century-old conflict with the Ajuran, and will be reclaiming their former territories in Ethiopia in the coming centuries.
- Inland in the north is the Ajuran, at the time the mightiest of all the Somali states, whos armies are constantly on the move attacking Ethiopians in support of Adal, Galla in their invasion of Jubaland, and Portugese incursions along the coast.
Of these, the most important in the first half of the game are the Galla, the Ajuran, and Mogadishu, and the most important in the last half are the Galla, the Majerteen of Nugal and the Hiraab of Hobyo.
I have chosen in Mymap to hand-wave the independence of Hobyo and Majerteen as being too tag-intensive and late-game, and Brava as being too irrelevant, but perhaps you disagree.
I don't know about the others, but the Galla were an assortment of bands with almost no cohesion, several related languages, and no common government, army, diplomacy or anything related to the concept of nation in EU2. Many North American tribes were more organized. I think they are better decribed as an ethnicity.Mad King James said:
Fodoron said:
Describe them whatever you like, the Galla and Ajuran fought over southern Somalia for two centuries, then the Galla invaded Ethiopia and conquered most of it. The thing that saved Ethiopia was its powerful culture, which managed to Abbysinize the Galla within a century or two. The Galla invasion was devastating for the political unity of Ethiopia though, make no mistake. Ethiopia fragmented into a dozen states, where there were perhaps 4 previously.
Sure, but how they were organized affects if they get a tag or not. Maybe the Comanche are as deserving (or undeserving) of a tag as the Galla. I seem to remember that the criteria was more elaborated than land ownership.
I don't recall the Commanche invading New England, or America being mostly ethnic Commanche today.
This is an apples-and-oranges argument and you know it.
If you'd rather simulate the single most important event in the modern history of the horn of africa with a few events, that's your business, but it sounds rather boring and stupid to me.
If you'd rather simulate the single most important event in the modern history of the horn of africa with a few events, that's your business, but it sounds rather boring and stupid to me.
However, we have on record MKJ that you once agreed that representing them as a state was foolhardy.
Besides, once they migrate in, they wouldn't be new states, they were part of Ethiopia. I think you are way too far on the side of wanting to represent anything that could potentially be a tag, as a tag...hence your break up of Ethiopia.
Besides, once they migrate in, they wouldn't be new states, they were part of Ethiopia. I think you are way too far on the side of wanting to represent anything that could potentially be a tag, as a tag...hence your break up of Ethiopia.
Garbon said:However, we have on record MKJ that you once agreed that representing them as a state was foolhardy.
Besides, once they migrate in, they wouldn't be new states, they were part of Ethiopia. I think you are way too far on the side of wanting to represent anything that could potentially be a tag, as a tag...hence your break up of Ethiopia.
Not only was southern Ethiopia independent, most of it was Pagan. There is a reason why Ethiopia had such a problem with Adal, Ethiopia wasn't that large originally. In fact it was rather small.
I had to eventually let go of all but the loosest criteria for tag-hood, because what made a state or quasi-state strong and powerful actually often has little or nothing to do with cohesion, central power or even civilization.