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Originally posted by Honour_Shogun



I agree 500% with what you said Heyesey.


fact is, that with the empire Englnd had at the time(why does everyone forget what the Canucks did in that war? Our country was literally born at Vimy Ridge, and yet, it seems like people just write them off.)
But i digress. The fact is, England had the ability to call up many allied forces, in spite of the US. Quite frankly, the last time England had had a successful amphibious landing against it was in 1066. So no, England was in no danger at all.
Control of continental Europe, does not Masters of the Earth make. What? Are they going to conscript the defeated French into their armies? And what about the partisans, in the conquered lands? Are they going to shrug, say "Well we fought the good fight, but Germany controls all of continental Europe. Let's go home, see how dinner is coming?"
To say the Germans would have won in 1918 is naive.. Nothing is certain, especially in war.

****************

Sorry i went off on a tangent, but why someone would assume that Germany would be victorious without the US helping the allies simply infuriates me. I will just finish now.

Let's not go too far here fellows. Of course there was little chance that the German Empire would have been able to defeat/invade England, whether or not the US intervened in WWI, but how about France? By the time the US entered the war, the French and English, as well as the Canadians, Australians, etc. had more or less exhausted the manpower they could raise for huge continental armies and simultaneously run their war economies. The French were quite close to exhaustion. The Germans, on the other hand, had millions of troops to move from the Eastern front to the West for an all out attempt at a war winning offensive, which came extremely close to knocking the French out of the war and the English (plus Empire) off the continent. The reinforcements and economic help that the US provided could not have been replaced from any other source. The harm to the morale of the Germans was immense. They were also close to exhaustion. When their last offensive didn't work, and they saw that the US would provide new large armies to the Allied war effort, that was the last straw.

I realize that the French, British, Canadians, etc. bore the brunt of the fighting and casualties on the Western Front, but I'm not sure they could have ended the war, at least not with a total victory, without the US.
 
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Re: So...

Originally posted by Fate
Should Europeans suffer similar -growth or +attrition when Columbus brings syphilis back with him to Europe? I know that syphilis was one of the major reasons that France was unsuccesful with their campaign in Naples.


There's no conclusive evidence that syphilis came from American to Europe, or vice versa.
 
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Originally posted by Demetrios


Germany would have starved even though it occupied the Ukraine?

Won't be much use to them once Turkey is defeated and the British occupy the Black Sea. They can just torch the wheat fields.

A large naval power will always defeat a large land power in the long run, because the naval power can blockade, and cannot itself be damaged in return. The English figured this out in the 16th century, which is why they expended so much effort on being the world's leading naval force for 400 years afterwards. At the time of WWI, the British naval fleet was still more than twice as large as anybody else's in the world, and eventually it *would* have ground Germany into submission. Might have taken another ten years, but after already losing a million men, they're not going to give up now :D

It was largely an understanding of exactly this outcome that led the Germans to begin an all-out Uboat campaign against civilian shipping, which in turn led to the Americans joining the war (Lusitania, anyone?) They knew by then that it was shit or bust, and whether or not the outraged Americans joined in against them wasn't going to matter to the eventual result. They failed to do enough damage to British shipping, the outraged Americans did join in against them, and it all got wrapped up a good deal more quickly.
 
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Re: Re: So...

Originally posted by Heyesey



There's no conclusive evidence that syphilis came from American to Europe, or vice versa.


but i thought there was. I was watching PBS, Secrets of the Dead, and they talked about how there was proof that Sypilis had come from Europe, that in fact, it had existed in Ancient times in some Roman cities. I can't remember the name exactly, but i do know that they talked about how it was not an American disease, that in fact it was European.

Just my 2 cents
 
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Originally posted by Aetius
So it comes down to ship building and air power then...

Up till WWI, it came down to ships. Nowadays, it comes down to planes.
 

Demetrios

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Originally posted by Heyesey


Won't be much use to them once Turkey is defeated and the British occupy the Black Sea. They can just torch the wheat fields.

A large naval power will always defeat a large land power in the long run, because the naval power can blockade, and cannot itself be damaged in return. The English figured this out in the 16th century, which is why they expended so much effort on being the world's leading naval force for 400 years afterwards. At the time of WWI, the British naval fleet was still more than twice as large as anybody else's in the world, and eventually it *would* have ground Germany into submission. Might have taken another ten years, but after already losing a million men, they're not going to give up now :D

It was largely an understanding of exactly this outcome that led the Germans to begin an all-out Uboat campaign against civilian shipping, which in turn led to the Americans joining the war (Lusitania, anyone?) They knew by then that it was shit or bust, and whether or not the outraged Americans joined in against them wasn't going to matter to the eventual result. They failed to do enough damage to British shipping, the outraged Americans did join in against them, and it all got wrapped up a good deal more quickly.

Actually, Heyesey, this is a fascinating thought exercise. The assumptions are that the US is removed from the equation completely, and assume that Germany, after defeating Russia, was able to move enough men to the west in order to achiive a decisive breakthrough in France in mid-1918, knocking France out of the war. What happens next? It all depends on how the British retreated during the break-through. I would would say that the odds that they retreated towards Normandy and the Channel ports is overwhelmingly high; but by doing so they would likely doom Italy. But the British aren't going to risk their army being cut off and surrounded in France, so they will of course move towards the ports and the protection of the navy. Presumably, the Germans in the terms of the armistice will not allow the French to allow the British to move men across France towards Italy, meaning that to redeploy their men in order to help their Italian allies, the British will have to sail them from Normandy and England through Gibraltar to Italy. Gibraltar would become a bottleneck, and in all probablilty, just about every German U-boat would be moved there to hamper the redeploymwnt of troops. Germany and Austria-Hungary, meanwhile, using interior lines of communication, would be able to quickly send men by railroad through southern Germany and Austria to the Italian front while the British hare taking the longer, slower, and more attritive route around Gibraltar. The end result would be that the Germans would be able to concentrate much of their army on the Italian front before the British would be there in significant numbers. I would say that by the end of 1918, the Italians would be desparately trying to reform their armies behind a hurredly created defensive line on the Po and the outskirts of Milan (at best). I don't see Italy lasting more than a few months after the fall of France, and that's if they don't throw in the towel almost immediately. So, by this point, of all the allies, only Britain and associated states are left...

That means that at that point, the only front left to fight in is in the Near East. Greece, seeing how the tide is turning, would attempt to reassert its neutrality and demand that the Britsh forces at Salonica withdraw, and would likely call in the Germans if they didn't leave immediately. That would only leave the front in Syria and Mesopotamia as the only active fighting fronts. Once again, the Germans would redeploy through Tukey, along the infamous Berlin-Baghdad railroad they built for just such a purpose...

It all comes down to morale at this point. Germany has defeated all its foes except for Britain, so even though the cost of the war has been high, victory is in sight and morale would be high. Britain, on the other hand, is now fighting alone and all her allies have been defeated. It would only take a few defeats in the Near East to convince people that the war is lost and it would be best to come to terms now before the situation becomes worse. And remember, to get men to the Near East, the Britsh have to ship them through the bottleneck at Gibraltar, where the Germans would be sending all the U-boats available to make the cost of such a movement high. The Britsh dare not send a lot of ships to protect the transports, becasue they run the risk of weakening the North Sea fleet to the point that the Germans might actually come out and fight. In my opnion, the Germans get more troops to Syria and Mesopotamia faster than the British, and their morale would be higher. A few quick defeats, resulting in the recapture of, say, Damascus and Baghdad, especially if the Suez Canal is lost, and Britain would likely sue for peace.
 

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back to the topic

This speculation about WW1 sort of brings us back to the original topic, doesn't it? What I mean is, that historically right after the war, the big flu wiped out a big chunk of the global population. If the war had gone on, it might have been worse. So it's probably impossible to predict what would have happened, since both sides would have been in utter chaos, with their soldiers and workers dying.

And by the way, I think the most famous instance of europeans infecting indians on purpose was during Pontiac's Conspiracy, when the English general gave the indians blankets from the smallpox hospital as part of the peace negotiations. Try implementing that in EU II.