Social Mobility

[kalauer]

*I posted this in Suggestions (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?forums/stellaris-suggestions.943/) but would like to hear discussions about it here: Interesting? Meaningful? Doable?*

So I love the Addition of social strata in LeGuin. Great Job! And I would like to add on this by making social mobility, or at least one aspect of it, a Topic.

As it is now, Workers get promoted to specialists when there are open Slots. They do so automatically. This causes some issues, but I assume they are being looked at Right now and this it not my concern here. But let's assume there is a rather finished planet or one that does not add Jobs for some reason. In These cases, the structure of the Population remains more or less the same. New Pops will Always be Workers, the specialists/rulers will remain those forever.

My idea is, that the strata also shift over time by themselves/without Addition of Jobs or Manual reassignment. For egalitarian Empires, this could be based on who is better suited for a Job. Maybe a new Pop has some juicy +xx% to Unity but is working as a miner. What if he had the Chance to take a specialist Job (Maybe checked once per year)? There could even be a Civic, lets call it 'meritocracy' (yes, I know, taken but anyhow…) that increases the Chance to be promoted. By the way, the demoted Pop should then not be blocked from working as miner. Authoritarian Empires would reduce the Chance or Maybe they use different criteria (same Pop ethic as empire for example, so they promote aligned Pops to higher political power) , xenophobes could promote only home-species...

I got the idea because as a ascended mechanized race, I had multiple robot models but it was a pain to assign the models to the best strata...

In short: Allow Pops to move through the strata by themselves based on criteria depending on empire type/ethics.​

 

[sortulv]

They already do this - unfortunately this causes a lot of unemployment as the previously higher strata get demoted.
My traditionalist pops tend to outcompete everyone else for ruler jobs, my intelligent pops tend to go to researcher jobs, and strangely my minerbots tend to be promoted to work the forges?

 

[kalauer]

They already do this - unfortunately this causes a lot of unemployment as the previously higher strata get demoted.
My traditionalist pops tend to outcompete everyone else for ruler jobs, my intelligent pops tend to go to researcher jobs, and strangely my minerbots tend to be promoted to work the forges?

Are you sure About this? I never witnessed any automatic demotion unless Jobs got lost.

 

[sortulv]

Are you sure About this? I never witnessed any automatic demotion unless Jobs got lost.

Demotion only happens if they lack work - but they lack work because someone else got their jobs. And this I am sure of.
Typically happens when a new worker grows, when droids or synths are researched.

 

[Gratak]

They already do this - unfortunately this causes a lot of unemployment as the previously higher strata get demoted.
My traditionalist pops tend to outcompete everyone else for ruler jobs, my intelligent pops tend to go to researcher jobs, and strangely my minerbots tend to be promoted to work the forges?

I think you misunderstand his suggestion. There should be a chance of a "pop change" between adjacent stratas without resulting unemployment. To simulate the process of a slow displacement by the better suited species.

 

[sortulv]

I think you misunderstand his suggestion. There should be a chance of a "pop change" between adjacent stratas without resulting unemployment. To simulate the process of a slow displacement by the better suited species.

Demotion while still employed?

So as an example, on a world inhabited by Blorg (repulsive), there are now starfoxes (charismatic) coming along. Seeing this the Blorg entertainers start looking for jobs as miners as they know they cannot hold jobs as entertainers in the new market? Rather than as it is now, the starfoxes starts working as a entertainer first, and the Blorg shows finds that nobody comes to see them anylonger, and they after spending all their savings looking for that new break, have to go working in the mines to make a living?

 

[Gratak]

Demotion while still employed?

So as an example, on a world inhabited by Blorg (repulsive), there are now starfoxes (charismatic) coming along. Seeing this the Blorg entertainers start looking for jobs as miners as they know they cannot hold jobs as entertainers in the new market? Rather than as it is now, the starfoxes starts working as a entertainer first, and the Blorg shows finds that nobody comes to see them anylonger, and they after spending all their savings looking for that new break, have to go working in the mines to make a living?

Kind of, but let me rewrite your story:
Every year a certain number of the blorg entertainers die or go into pension. Their replacements will mostly be starfoxes in a meritocratic society. Furthermore, every year some number may lose their entertainer job because of being repulsive and will decide to start as a clerk instead. Over a few year, there would be enough starfoxes in the entertainer business that it would justify a Stellaris "pop". At the same time, there is never a point in this story where lots of blorgs where unemployed at the same time. Thus, no reason to ever show an "unemployed pop" in Stellaris.

I'm not saying they should allow massive switching there. If suddenly a billion robots are going to replace the blorg entertainers, there certainly will be unemployment since there is a billion blorgs that lost their job at the same time. But it should allow a slow "drifting", best modelled in Stellaris by a random chance of switching, that can be weighted by ethics etc.

 

[kalauer]

Kind of, but let me rewrite your story:
....

Yes, that is the idea. With the Addition of promotion criteria modified by empire ethics, as described above.

 

[sortulv]

Kind of, but let me rewrite your story:
Every year a certain number of the blorg entertainers die or go into pension. Their replacements will mostly be starfoxes in a meritocratic society. Furthermore, every year some number may lose their entertainer job because of being repulsive and will decide to start as a clerk instead. Over a few year, there would be enough starfoxes in the entertainer business that it would justify a Stellaris "pop". At the same time, there is never a point in this story where lots of blorgs where unemployed at the same time. Thus, no reason to ever show an "unemployed pop" in Stellaris.

Considering that we may be talking about venerable creatures, this might well take 120 years for a generation...
Also, most youths I know tend to seek educations on the same level of their parents - so you would have a generation of newly educated Blorg that would not be able to find work on the same level as their parents - still living on the parents money, and not quite willing to find low level work.

 

[kalauer]

Also, most youths I know tend to seek educations on the same level of their parents

That is the reason I framed the Topic 'social mobility'. Sure there are societies that lack it and there are societies thinkable that restrict it by purpose. But e.g. egalitarian societies should not (by Definition).

Considering that we may be talking about venerable creatures, this might well take 120 years for a generation.

Whether this system should be scaled to lifetime is an interesting aspect that certainly can be pondered upon. But the 'biological' replacement is not the only way people change jobs.

 

[sortulv]

That is the reason I framed the Topic 'social mobility'. Sure there are societies that lack it and there are societies thinkable that restrict it by purpose. But e.g. egalitarian societies should not (by Definition).

I was talking about the fairly egalitarian societies we have in the countries I know. (Europe + North America (probably true for most of the rest of the world to, I just don't know those places).
In societies with less mobility, the promotion of workers that replace the current higher tier, cannot happen at all, and thus no unemployment.

 

[The Boz]

They already do this - unfortunately this causes a lot of unemployment as the previously higher strata get demoted.
My traditionalist pops tend to outcompete everyone else for ruler jobs, my intelligent pops tend to go to researcher jobs, and strangely my minerbots tend to be promoted to work the forges?

I want it to work like this, but sadly, it rarely does. My miner bots will often take over farming jobs, and let my *weak* race toil in the mines.

 

[sortulv]

I want it to work like this, but sadly, it rarely does. My miner bots will often take over farming jobs, and let my *weak* race toil in the mines.

The logic behind which pop goes were does not seem to be working quite right - as mentioned the miner bots tended to be placed in forges (were they had no bonuses). But the game does seem to attempt to do replacements across tiers.

Now - if it could learn that a bonus to mining means that the pop should try to get a job as a miner if one is available, it would have been great...

 

[the glory of plain]

maybe pop should move down strata instantly with utopia or share burden living standard
that may make already overpowered share burden game breaking
but at least give it to utopia

 

[The Boz]

The logic behind which pop goes were does not seem to be working quite right - as mentioned the miner bots tended to be placed in forges (were they had no bonuses). But the game does seem to attempt to do replacements across tiers.

Now - if it could learn that a bonus to mining means that the pop should try to get a job as a miner if one is available, it would have been great...

And this is yet another of about a dozen nails in the robot/synth coffin: we can't assign pops to jobs any more, and the game does it badly.

 

[Cyriaque]

maybe pop should move down strata instantly with utopia or share burden living standard
that may make already overpowered share burden game breaking
but at least give it to utopia

I understand why you want this but : If you were an executive in your company, would you accept to return to the photocopier, even for the same remuneration ?

 

[kalauer]

I understand why you want this but : If you were an executive in your company, would you accept to return to the photocopier, even for the same remuneration ?

Would you like to be resettled to a new (and awfully hot and dusty) place with no Job for 100 Energy credits?

Maybe shorten the demotion-malus when the demotion happens via this System considerably?

 

[sortulv]

Would you like to be resettled to a new (and awfully hot and dusty) place with no Job for 100 Energy credits?

100 credits isn't payment to change worlds - it is the payment to the passenger ships transporting the pop.
This is what is known as begin promoted sideways. New wonderful chances to prosper on a virgin world with rapidly raising house prices (mostly due to them going from 0).

Maybe shorten the demotion-malus when the demotion happens via this System considerably?

The shortening of the demotion time is what you get from investing in harmony.

 

[Gratak]

Btw, I'm not against some penalty on the pop when the switch happens (though I'm not sure if the game is even capable of that anymore). The thing is just:
1. We need some mechanic of allowing switching between stratas. Otherwise, you have no chance of ever reaching something close to optimal with regard to who works who
2. The unemployment warning when someone becomes unemployed because of strata problems is EXTREMELY ANNOYING. I'm always checking through planets which one needs a new building or district and keep clicking on the ones that just have to wait for a demotion...

 

[Ole122]

I'd love it if social mobility (well, demotions actually) would be linked to policies. Egalitarian society? Those specialists sure get down to workers a lot faster than in a stratified, monarchic or what have you society.