So Xenophobic empires can't benefit from genetic engineering without a huge happiness hit

[Jerev]

It may be

In which episode does he modify his species?

Edit: sorry I didn't read the post you quoted.

 

[Ariphaos]

the problem is not that you modify half of your pops and the other half hates them... that would be ok

the problem is when you modify all your pops in the next generation of improved original species and they are considered xeno scum not able to hold leadership position and follow all laws of the aliens...

two species with different traits can very well hate each other if xenophobic, even iof both desced from the same parent species... that's good
but we truly need the ability to choose an improved design as the primary species (provided it's also the majority)

Shouldn't have to be the majority - it should just usually be a bad idea.

 

[Haccoude]

Wait, so the options for race limitations are just "Primary only vs non-Primary allowed"? I can't have an empire where privileges are granted to the founding race, modified versions of the founding race and synthetic versions of the founding race (i.e. robots)?

It's just "The race you started the game with, or every race in your entire empire"? That seems like a huge problem if it's the case...

 

[Caspoi]

I'm in two minds about this.

Initially, I was thinking that xenophobes shouldn't hate their own subspecies at all. Especially when those subspecies are, for example, exactly the same as the old species, but with the "Weak" trait replaced with "Very Strong".
This is less a case of "Eww, foreigners" and more a case of "Rejoice, bretheren, for the promised Ubermensch is here!"

But then it occurred to me that if you've got an ocean-preference base species, and then you GM yourself a desert-preference version for colonisation purposes, I think it would be entirely reasonable for the two groups to dislike each other. One reviled as a bunch of bottom-feeding atavists stuck in the past, and the other as a bunch of freakish Frankenstein-experiment extraterrestrial sand people quasi-xenos.

So I really don't know a way out of this that wouldn't cause exactly as much flavour-harm as it fixes.

I don't Think that it is as much the fact that they dislike other subspecies but the fact that there is no way for a subspecies to become the main species.

 

[Oscot]

the problem is not that you modify half of your pops and the other half hates them... that would be ok

I disagree.
If I'm a xenophobic race with the 'Weak' trait, and I can only afford to GM a few of them to 'Very Strong' for use as shock troop purposes to crush the foul Ayy Lmao, I would still expect the rest of the population to love the ubermensch minority. Because... well, they're strictly better, and also they're the point of the spear that murders the alien. What's not to love?

That's the main problem here. I don't think "You can't change your main species" IS a problem. You shouldn't be able to change your main species as xenophobes. You just shouldn't despise improved versions of your own species.

 

[Caspoi]

Wait, so the options for race limitations are just "Primary only vs non-Primary allowed"? I can't have an empire where privileges are granted to the founding race, modified versions of the founding race and synthetic versions of the founding race (i.e. robots)?

It's just "The race you started the game with, or every race in your entire empire"? That seems like a huge problem if it's the case...

I Think that there are four options:

Only founding species
Xenos allowed
Androids aloowed
everyone allowed

 

[Giacomo1405]

Wait, so the options for race limitations are just "Primary only vs non-Primary allowed"? I can't have an empire where privileges are granted to the founding race, modified versions of the founding race and synthetic versions of the founding race (i.e. robots)?

It's just "The race you started the game with, or every race in your entire empire"? That seems like a huge problem if it's the case...

you can see the laws here:
http://www.stellariswiki.com/Policies

 

[Caspoi]

I disagree.
If I'm a xenophobic race with the 'Weak' trait, and I can only afford to GM a few of them to 'Very Strong' for use as shock troop purposes to crush the foul Ayy Lmao, I would still expect the rest of the population to love the ubermensch minority. Because... well, they're strictly better, and also they're the point of the spear that murders the alien. What's not to love?

That's the main problem here. I don't think "You can't change your main species" IS a problem. You shouldn't be able to change your main species as xenophobes. You just shouldn't despise improved versions of your own species.

You are basically saying that the imperium of man should not hate it's space marines?

 

[Oscot]

You are basically saying that the imperium of man should not hate it's space marines?

That's a good analogy; yes, pretty much.

 

[Stoßtrupp Gold]

I'm in two minds about this.

Initially, I was thinking that xenophobes shouldn't hate their own subspecies at all. Especially when those subspecies are, for example, exactly the same as the old species, but with the "Weak" trait replaced with "Very Strong".
This is less a case of "Eww, foreigners" and more a case of "Rejoice, bretheren, for the promised Ubermensch is here!"

But then it occurred to me that if you've got an ocean-preference base species, and then you GM yourself a desert-preference version for colonisation purposes, I think it would be entirely reasonable for the two groups to dislike each other. One reviled as a bunch of bottom-feeding atavists stuck in the past, and the other as a bunch of freakish Frankenstein-experiment extraterrestrial sand people quasi-xenos.

So I really don't know a way out of this that wouldn't cause exactly as much flavour-harm as it fixes.

I agree. Gene modding the traits shouldn´t give birth to a new sub-species. Only changing the planet preference should do.

@Xeriar: Found it. Can you say when he was in the gene modding screen? I didn´t found that.

 

[moglus]

You are basically saying that the imperium of man should not hate it's space marines?

That's a good analogy; yes, pretty much.

The "space marine analogy" isn't entirely apt, different army types (clone, psi, xenomorph, gene warrior) exist independently from civilian POPs

 

[Ariphaos]

I agree. Gene modding the traits shouldn´t give birth to a new sub-species. Only changing the planet preference should do.

@Xeriar: Found it. Can you say when he was in the gene modding screen? I didn´t found that.

I think it's in Episode 20 somewhere, but could be 19. Was taking him awhile.

 

[Haccoude]

I Think that there are four options:

Only founding species
Xenos allowed
Androids aloowed
everyone allowed

you can see the laws here:
http://www.stellariswiki.com/Policies

Thanks. So that means I can allow robot pops leadership separate from xenos pops, which solves one problem. That leaves only the problem that genetically modified pops are counted as xenos. And it is a problem. Not only would it make sense that some civs would allow all of their own subspecies into leadership positions (but not other species and their subspecies), it's even imaginable that some would only "gene-improve" the ruling classes, and as a result only a specific subspecies would be allowed into leadership positions.

Since the current leadership policies actually seem quite well done for the xenos and android question, I imagine it would make sense to keep leadership policies as is, but add a "Subspecies" policy category dictating whether subspecies are counted as xenos or primary species. Presumably there would be four policies in the form of "Our own genemodded subspecies count as xenos", "Subspecies with the same planetary preference count as our own species", "All of our subspecies count as part of our primary species" and "Only a specific one of our subspecies doesn't count as xenos".

 

[Falc]

The "space marine analogy" isn't entirely apt, different army types (clone, psi, xenomorph, gene warrior) exist independently from civilian POPs

But that's part of the issue. We can genetically modify worker POPs. Does changing every single worker POP imply that the ruling elite and the military and everyone else is also modified? No, it doesn't necessarily imply that... It may very well be what you want to do, and this thread certainly seems to indicate it is a wanted feature, but that idea doesn't seem to be supported in the game for now.

 

[Oscot]

But that's part of the issue. We can genetically modify worker POPs. Does changing every single worker POP imply that the ruling elite and the military and everyone else is also modified? No, it doesn't necessarily imply that... It may very well be what you want to do, and this thread certainly seems to indicate it is a wanted feature, but that idea doesn't seem to be supported in the game for now.

I do not understand the distinction.
Especially in Stellaris.
Your ruling elite and military are drawn from your Pops. Your armies are drawn from your Pops. And i mean this in a literal, mechanical, in-game sense. Xeno leaders spawn from the specific species of xeno you have in your empire. When you raise an army, you actually get a popup screen where you select which Pop you draw it from.

So modifying your pops IS modifying the ruling elite and the military in Stellaris, already.

To run with the Spess Marine example, I need to mod at least 1 Pop to very strong before I can draw armies from it and take advantage of the +40% ground damage modifier.

 

[-Marauder-]

You are basically saying that the imperium of man should not hate it's space marines?

Basically, and now imagine the Imperium of Man had the ability to turn EVERYONE into space marines. The biggest problems would be during the transition which would justify some unhappiness and conflicts. Imagine having augmented children in the same class as non augmented children. "Oh you haven't had your X done yet, ahahaha! Loser."

But ultimatively this would end up going away as everyone reaches the new standard, it would simply become "the norm" and any outliers could be easily brought up to reach it if we had such technology. It's not a new species or anything either, it's simply Human Version 1.0.3 now with 25% quicker reaction speed, 15 more IQ points and a by 10% increased life span on average!

 

[Oscot]

Since the current leadership policies actually seem quite well done for the xenos and android question, I imagine it would make sense to keep leadership policies as is, but add a "Subspecies" policy category dictating whether subspecies are counted as xenos or primary species.

I honestly thought this was already in the game.

In fact Dev Diary #14 literally uses the term subspecies, so, idk, maybe it is already in the game, and this is just a bug where GM accidentally gets classed as "New Species" rather than "Subspecies".

I really hope this doesn't represent Working As Designed, 'cos it'll really put a dent in my Space Nazi Eugenics playthrough.

 

[-Marauder-]

Oscot, it puts a dent in quite a few government types. A xenophobic technocracy? Can't actually do a bunch of science stuff.

 

[Milten]

I agree. Gene modding the traits shouldn´t give birth to a new sub-species. Only changing the planet preference should do.

And even after that they should be treated differently than actual xenos, because what's the point of spending resources to let your species live in a different biosphere if you can just find fitting aliens and roll with them?
And now when I think about it, it seems that my Spiritualist Xenophobes lost their only way to colonize opposite world types. They hate robots, they hate xenos, they hate their own subspecies. I wonder what devs thought about such ethos combination.

 

[barny]

On the other hand you might call it a balancing thing, considering that xenophobes can purge and enslave left right and center, while xenophiles or individualists have to be very careful and will likely get a very fractioned empire.