Michaelis said:
I believe you are wrong. Just from my tests. Have to agree to disagree as neither of us can "prove" it right now.
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I believe you are wrong. Just from my tests. Have to agree to disagree as neither of us can "prove" it right now.
to Arado
Hi Arado,
I haven't reduced demands by 1/2, but 1/3, 2/3 or 1/2 of few selected goods for some class of POP.
Following the threads pointed by Kriegspieler I discovered that Derek has cutted demands much more and for all goods.
Actually I wasn't aware of such important difference with the economy in 1.01 cause I only have the game since 10 days.
Anyway, IMHO increasing production by 10X and reducing demands by 10X for all goods is not the right thing to do.
Why not ? Because:
A) National income is quite well balanced in 1.03 and should not be broken.
B) Only some goods don't fulfill the demands and only these according to me should be addressed by adjusted increasing and/or decreasing tweaks.
For more detail go there:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2561249#post2561249
My main concern is:
How make Upper class earning money and buying bond without destroying the overall national economy, i.e. nor too much money (1.01?) neither not enough = 1.02.
Ciao ! Amadeus
Hi Arado,
I haven't reduced demands by 1/2, but 1/3, 2/3 or 1/2 of few selected goods for some class of POP.
Following the threads pointed by Kriegspieler I discovered that Derek has cutted demands much more and for all goods.
Actually I wasn't aware of such important difference with the economy in 1.01 cause I only have the game since 10 days.
Anyway, IMHO increasing production by 10X and reducing demands by 10X for all goods is not the right thing to do.
Why not ? Because:
A) National income is quite well balanced in 1.03 and should not be broken.
B) Only some goods don't fulfill the demands and only these according to me should be addressed by adjusted increasing and/or decreasing tweaks.
For more detail go there:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2561249#post2561249
My main concern is:
How make Upper class earning money and buying bond without destroying the overall national economy, i.e. nor too much money (1.01?) neither not enough = 1.02.
Ciao ! Amadeus
Michaelis said:
Were this the case, opium, precious metals, and automobiles wouldn't be selling for 0.50£ because no pops are buying them. The pops would skip the 95£ regular clothes and get the precious metal, and this is most certainly not the case.
Amadeus said:Hi Arado,
I haven't reduced demands by 1/2, but 1/3, 2/3 or 1/2 of few selected goods for some class of POP.
Following the threads pointed by Kriegspieler I discovered that Derek has cutted demands much more and for all goods.
Actually I wasn't aware of such important difference with the economy in 1.01 cause I only have the game since 10 days.
Anyway, IMHO increasing production by 10X and reducing demands by 10X for all goods is not the right thing to do.
Why not ? Because:
A) National income is quite well balanced in 1.03 and should not be broken.
B) Only some goods don't fulfill the demands and only these according to me should be addressed by adjusted increasing and/or decreasing tweaks.
For more detail go there:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2561249#post2561249
My main concern is:
How make Upper class earning money and buying bond without destroying the overall national economy, i.e. nor too much money (1.01?) neither not enough = 1.02.
Ciao ! Amadeus
Well, its just a suggestion. Its the way things worked in 1.01 and nobody complaied about it that much. Folks from Paradox admitted that it was a huge error tho, to have the production values and demand values so high. I have a bad feeling that much of this part of the game, POP reserves and demand for goods was based entirely on the pre 1.02 code, which was 10X what it was supposed to be. Am I wrong here?
Also, I dont fully understand this "blocker" demand business. Can anyone explain? As soon as I'm done with my work and get to go home this weekend I'll test out a patch that mimicks 1.01 in some ways. Its starting to look like we need another patch to revise for this. But overal, the game plays well!
Also, what is the meaning of increasing POP income in the dv files?? Would this aleviate any of these problems?
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Amadeus said:Hi Arado,
I haven't reduced demands by 1/2, but 1/3, 2/3 or 1/2 of few selected goods for some class of POP.
Following the threads pointed by Kriegspieler I discovered that Derek has cutted demands much more and for all goods.
Actually I wasn't aware of such important difference with the economy in 1.01 cause I only have the game since 10 days.
Anyway, IMHO increasing production by 10X and reducing demands by 10X for all goods is not the right thing to do.
Why not ? Because:
A) National income is quite well balanced in 1.03 and should not be broken.
B) Only some goods don't fulfill the demands and only these according to me should be addressed by adjusted increasing and/or decreasing tweaks.
For more detail go there:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2561249#post2561249
My main concern is:
How make Upper class earning money and buying bond without destroying the overall national economy, i.e. nor too much money (1.01?) neither not enough = 1.02.
Ciao ! Amadeus
EDIT: Sorry, I didn't read Derek's answer cause it took me 45 minutes to type this one
. Bad in typing and not so good engilsh as I would be.
A "blocker" demand is where the POP cannot meet 100% of its needs (life / everyday / luxury)
So if a POP is getting 82% of its life needs and no everyday or luxury then one or more life needs cannot be filled. The item that causes this is the "blocker". Often this will be an expensive item like liquor or furniture or clothes.
By reducing the demand of the POP for this item you can help them fulfill all their life needs. Note that if they spend all their cash this is not a big problem for raising money on tariffs or raising money from taxes, it only affects demand for those particular items.
A supply shortage item is when there is no goods available. In this case the POP will skip this item and move on to the next item, possibly in the next higher needs group.
Basically as POPs will spend all their money if all needs are < 100% this is ok for tariff income. If you reduce the demands too much then the POPs will accumulate cash and tariff income may be lower than before. Alternatively if POP income increases alot then tariff income will be maintained and eventually POPs buy bonds
My target is to allow Prussia to maintain circa 100% of life, 50% of everyday and no luxuries for most of the first part of the game. Hopefully everyday will increase as the game progresses and in the end luxury items are being bought. I'm not that bothered about bonds per se.
So if a POP is getting 82% of its life needs and no everyday or luxury then one or more life needs cannot be filled. The item that causes this is the "blocker". Often this will be an expensive item like liquor or furniture or clothes.
By reducing the demand of the POP for this item you can help them fulfill all their life needs. Note that if they spend all their cash this is not a big problem for raising money on tariffs or raising money from taxes, it only affects demand for those particular items.
A supply shortage item is when there is no goods available. In this case the POP will skip this item and move on to the next item, possibly in the next higher needs group.
Basically as POPs will spend all their money if all needs are < 100% this is ok for tariff income. If you reduce the demands too much then the POPs will accumulate cash and tariff income may be lower than before. Alternatively if POP income increases alot then tariff income will be maintained and eventually POPs buy bonds
My target is to allow Prussia to maintain circa 100% of life, 50% of everyday and no luxuries for most of the first part of the game. Hopefully everyday will increase as the game progresses and in the end luxury items are being bought. I'm not that bothered about bonds per se.
Derek Pullem said:
Sounds good! Are you going to post your files anywhere like you did before?
Derek Pullem said:
Hmm... i've experienced in my prussia game today with taxes below 50% and 0 cash reserves devolving of pops in factories.
I modded the needs down and tried many different values but don't get my pops to earn money and get a little income!
So i think there must be an other problem!
Earlier in this thread discussed -> Will it help to increase pop incom in misc.txt?
Hi Derek
I've modded the needs of pops also in my industrialism mod and it works!
All pops get 100/50-60/0 of their needs in early game(tested until 1847), but i've got the problem with devolving of pops as described post above!
Derek Pullem said:
I've modded the needs of pops also in my industrialism mod and it works!
All pops get 100/50-60/0 of their needs in early game(tested until 1847), but i've got the problem with devolving of pops as described post above!
I got probabs with De-evolving pops as well, its really fustrating :wacko: hope its fixed soon.
Barkhauer said:
Most likely they're not selling, and that's why they're priced at half a quid. If POPs spend all their cash on lower tier needs, i.e. they have none left over at all, they won't buy any luxury needs no matter how cheap they are. I haven't played 1.03, but from what I read about it I don't think the basic POP pseudo-demand/pseudo-supply system was changed.
There is a very simple way to check whether I'm right or wrong. Rearrange all the items POPs need into three need groups by price only. You'll have to adjust certain item prices/demand too to make sure an item from a lower group does not become more expensive than an item from a higher group. Of course you'll want to make sure the overall cost of satisfying all needs stays the same.
Once you've done that (and I warn you it may take several hours - I went through the process myself while perfecting my 1.02 economy mod) you'll see POPs magically encountering no so-called supply blockers. At least until prices on the WM fluctuate to such an extent that an item from a lower need group becomes more expensive than an item from a higher need group.
IMO there cannot be any 'supply' blockers, because there is no real supply modelled in the game except for industrial needs.
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Michaelis said:
What you say makes sense, since Vic peasants always seem to get their cup of tea even if the global supply is dwarfed by global demand.
For consumption items I think this model makes some sense, since most rural people were cash poor and their fundamental needs if not imported from abroad or the city were either met by local trade or they did without. All the consumer products are actually proxies for a range of historical products that would differ by region depending on local production.
Wish there were designers' notes explaining all that needs explaining . . .
Becephalus said:
It's normally a bad idea to reply to something on the first page without reading the whole thread, but:
No, pop cash reserves were not fine in 1.02. No one had any money except soldiers (who did not buy anything). In 1.03 I've seen my middle and lower class with money, but never the rich.
Icecold said:
You do realise that "1000's of hours" is not infinate time, right? Have you looked in the readme to see just how many changes were made?
Derek Pullem said:
Don't be annoyed, but to begin with your question doesn't make sense. There are no 80/60/0 needs; there is only 80/60/0 fulfilment of needs.
I assume you're asking how come the need fulfilment can take this 80/60/0 pattern. It was discussed already in great detail in an earlier thread, btw.
A POP begins meeting its needs by purchasing all the needed items from the life needs group. Each item is counted as a percentage of need fulfilment; if there are 10 items in a need group and the POP buys 8, then its need fulfilment for items in that group equals 80. If 8 items and it buys 6, then it's 12.5 x 6 = 75.
Let's say a POP bought everything except liquor (here I would like to add that I'm gratified Paradox has copied the POP need tables from my mod almost exactly. But it would have been better for them to copy them exactly, and a nod in my direction would have been polite). Anyway, the cash the POP still has after failing to buy too-expensive liquor is applied to the next tier of needs - everyday needs. It will certainly be able to buy several everyday items which are cheaper than the needed liquor, but it won't be able to buy all of them. The more expensive ones such as furniture and regular clothes will be out of reach.
If the discussed POP doesn't have any more cash after buying whatever everyday needs it can afford, the story ends there. If it does have some cash left over (but not enough to buy another everyday need) it will attempt to spend this cash on luxury needs. Quite often it will successfully purchase a relatively cheap luxury item like opium or wine. Then you'll get, say, a 80/60/20 pattern.
As I mentioned earlier, there was an old economics thread where all this was dissected down to the smallest detail. What I find truly surprising is that Paradox not only refuses to inform players how this whole thing works, but also keeps its own betas in the dark.
I must say, with real regret, that this whole Victoria business has truly hurt Paradox's image in my eyes. Bits of old code from other games in the exe file, atrocious English in-game texts (in a game that RELIES on in-game texts to make the player understand what's going on), the pouting and posing on the fora, and also this persistent pretense that the POP need system in the game actually works according to real-life rules of supply and demand... It's childish and silly. It's a game, an entertainment product. A designer does what he has to do to make things entertaining. He isn't beholden to copy real life mechanisms. So I don't quite understand what's the shame in admitting outright that yes, POP needs have been faked to make for an interesting gaming experience because that was the only way to do it without making the game crawl, or adding a couple of months to development time. And keeping such 'secrets' from betas is just ridiculous - there's no other word for it.
Victoria is a great concept and a fine game. But playing it is like attempting to read a great book which has many pages missing, and others despoiled by food stains and scribbles. I've put it on the shelf until 1.07 or thereabouts. And I'll never buy another Paradox game upon release. I'm too old to waste my time.
I have a save where the pops are devolving, showing up in factories. I imagine they have a good one at this point, but I thought I'd mention it.
Prussia
1950
tax rates: rich: 15% middle: 30% low: 45% Tarriffs: 0.0
It is happening at epidemic levels for some reason (despite modest taxes).
Prussia
1950
tax rates: rich: 15% middle: 30% low: 45% Tarriffs: 0.0
It is happening at epidemic levels for some reason (despite modest taxes).