So will we ever sell a bond again (or no one's POPs have spare cash)

[unmerged(8351)]

Will we ever sell a bond again? (or no one's POPs have spare cash)

As Belgium (always a good country to test a patch with) I developed a huge worldwide empire (colonized about 25 colonies) and finshed the tech tree around 1910. I make a ton of goods have many many armies factories etc. (the important thing to note here is that I am by all measures a very prosperous nation). I make around 100 pounds/day with taxes around 25% except middle which are 0%. Yet not a single one of my POPS has a pound...not one. I have also not sold one state bond the entire game!!! completely rendering this interesting game element and source of income irrelevant.

I assume it was not intended for this to be the situation (the events which subtratc 10000pounds from everyones wallet are hilarious now). So the question arises how to fix it. The obvious solution is to simply increase POP income so they can build up a surplus. One would have to increase the crime, education, and military cost modifiers in order to prevent the state from making money too easily.

Anyone else have any ideas or from now on is the idea of POPs ever running a surplus just being dumped. (My clerks from a factory makes that 250 pounds a day had no surplus cash with a 0% tax rate and no tarrifs!)

 

[Theodotus1]

As Belgium (always a good country to test a patch with) I developed a huge worldwide empire (colonized about 25 colonies) and finshed the tech tree around 1910. I make a ton of goods have many many armies factories etc. (the important thing to note here is that I am by all measures a very prosperous nation). I make around 100 pounds/day with taxes around 25% except middle which are 0%. Yet not a single one of my POPS has a pound...not one. I have also not sold one state bond the entire game!!! completely rendering this interesting game element and source of income irrelevant.

I assume it was not intended for this to be the situation (the events which subtratc 10000pounds from everyones wallet are hilarious now). So the question arises how to fix it. The obvious solution is to simply increase POP income so they can build up a surplus. One would have to increase the crime, education, and military cost modifiers in order to prevent the state from making money too easily.

Anyone else have any ideas or from now on is the idea of POPs ever running a surplus just being dumped. (My clerks from a factory makes that 250 pounds a day had no surplus cash with a 0% tax rate and no tarrifs!)

I don't know about Belgium, but as Texas I get people investing in bonds from the very beginning.

 

[unmerged(8351)]

I don't know about Belgium, but as Texas I get people investing in bonds from the very beginning.

seriously??? Are you sure they were not just doing this with their starting cash (they will stop once it drys up)

 

[Theodotus1]

seriously??? Are you sure they were not just doing this with their starting cash (they will stop once it drys up)

I can't say that for certain yet, but I'll bring back a report once I know.

 

[BennyB]

This is a major problem, as France, Italy, Prussia/Germany, none of my POPs ever had any cash and I never got 1 cent from a state bond. This is no less than a game flaw as it renders that entire feature from the game null and void because all of my campaigns I managed to turn my country into a prosperous country by all measures, low taxes (15% on all), low tarriffs, and many social benefits. Why are my people only getting 67% of their everyday goods and NONE of their luxury goods...what do I have to do!!!!!!?????

 

[Johnny Canuck]

For one thing, a POP cannot buy everyday or luxury goods if said goods are not available on the WM.

 

[unmerged(8351)]

For one thing, a POP cannot buy everyday or luxury goods if said goods are not available on the WM.

But it sems like the money must be going somewhere...?

 

[Barkhauer]

It is my personal theory that the money (from exports) is not getting to the pops, thus the slow, irreversible drain of cash reserve. I have a couple ways of testing this, and will report back once I have done so.

 

[DGuller]

For one thing, a POP cannot buy everyday or luxury goods if said goods are not available on the WM.

So where does the money go then?

 

[Barkhauer]

Experiment 1:
USA, GC, 1836. All taxes set to 0%, full subsidies. Most profitable factory after 1 week of game time allowed to run: New York Cement Factory at ~6.2£ per day. Pops in factory are:

13,010 craftsmen Yankee making 0.28£ daily 100% subsistence 100% everday
21042 clerks Yankee losing 0.91£ daily 100% subsistence 50-60% everyday
5004 craftsman Yankee making 0.09£ daily 100% subsistence 100% everyday
13010 clerks Yankee losing 0.97£ daily 100% subsistence 100% everyday

Conclusion #1. I was in error about pops not receiving any cash. The craftsmen are clearly making at least some money as they are increasing in wealth with each passing day. Are the clerks not making money, or are they simply not making enough to cover the cost of the goods they purchase?

Conclusion #2. Max subsidies is not a 100% reduction in goods cost for pops, else the pops would be making money regardless of how much/how little they bought off the world market.

Edit: Observation: Poor tax base shows slow growth (140£ becomes 160£ after approx 2 years game time) with 0% taxes, maxes subsidies. Middle class and Wealthy remain relatively static.

 

[Barkhauer]

I appear to have discovered a related issue. Farmers which manage to hit 100£ buy precious metal and opium off the world market as luxury goods. This breaks the "0.50£ issue" with those resources, where they will forever stay at half a pound price throughout games of 1.03. In games where this occurs, it is thus to be seen as a by-product of the "no pop cash" issue, not a bug with the materials or pricing system itself. In a world where nobody has any cash for luxuries, those luxuries cannot be in demand, thus the floored price.

As an aside, I am running these tests using the money cheat, as I have no taxes and full subsidies. If half the *employed* pops can't get money even under those conditions, there is no hope for players who don't cheat and have to actually tax their pops. Price reductions via increased supply to the world market (eg, undustrialization and market dumping by the player) can't seem to compensate, though only late-game testing will be able to answer for certain.

 

[unmerged(8351)]

Well if a 1910 Belgium with all techs researched counts as "late game testing" then, no, the problem does not get noticably better with time.

 

[Barkhauer]

Within 3 years of gameplay, all pops are losing money with 0% taxes, full subsidies. The problem seems to be due to a large rise in the price of regular clothing, from 19£ to just shy of 95£. I am experimenting with both making a clothing factory to cash in on the high price and see if the pops working in it receive correspondingly higher pay, and also to see if increasing supply brings the price down enough to help the nation on a larger scale. I have high hopes that the supposedly "broken" price/supply/demand economy so many have lamented is actually there, working as designed, but simply so far "under the hood" that people have not so far been able to properly harness it. If this works as it appears to, then making, eg, regular clothing factory could actually increase the tax base of farmers in another state, etc.

 

[Theodotus1]

After two years of play (using the VIP mod test files available on Yahoo) Texas is turning a profit of 6 cash a day on an agricultural economy (albeit one that's more balanced and historically accurate than in vanilla Victoria). The POPs keep getting richer (except the slaves), and they do a steady business in bonds. Now if only clothing were available on the WM. (There is a definite shortage of clothing on the WM.)

 

[unmerged(8351)]

No offense but without knowing what that mod changes that info does not really help at all. This is a new problem in 1.03, as best I could tell in 1.02 cash reserves were a little screwy, but mostly OK.

 

[unmerged(8351)]

I am going to try to double POP income and double defense/crime/literacy costs and see if that helps

Did not have an appreciable effect...my craftsmen went from nothing to making .02 a day, no other POP earned cash reserves. Everyone was unable to fulfill even their everyday goods, and had 0% of luxerys...

 

[Theodotus1]

No offense but without knowing what that mod changes that info does not really help at all. This is a new problem in 1.03, as best I could tell in 1.02 cash reserves were a little screwy, but mostly OK.

The VIP mod doesn't change the economic formulas. It does change the resources located in Texas, because more was produced there than just cattle and sulphur. One grain province and one cotton province replace two cattle provinces, is the only economic change.

Additionally, the VIP mod allows Texas to start with its historical boundaries, which include what's now New Mexico and part of Colorado.

These are the only differences from Victoria 1.03 and the VIP mod when it comes to economics for Texas. It's not like any changes were made to factory inputs or outputs, or POP income or expenditures.

 

[Sir Garnet]

What I find odd is that my farmers get most of their basic needs, except liquor, and some everyday items. Clerks get stuck on grain and liquor, and capitalists on liquor. They never seem to get to clothes. Lowering taxes to zero doesn't seem to make any difference to any of them.

Is it possible that there's a typo in one of the data files? Maybe someone better able to look under the hood can tell. That's happened more than once in gaming history.

 

[Barkhauer]

From what I can tell, most pops end up spending way more than they can afford on regular clothing. I may try removing it entirely as a consumer good to test if the pops suddenly have money to spare. Some pops require as much as 2.0 of it I've seen, and as such the price (base 19£) shoots way high, as high as 95£, so most pops break themselves buying it.

 

[Barkhauer]

Once again, it proves to not quite be that simple. The pops have more money, but still require regular clothes to be removed, and 0% taxes/full subsidies to get up to 100£, but then they all, with the exception of officers, don't have enough money to make it above the luxury basement. Clerks continue to have no money at all.

Of course, this is also in 1836, with low efficiencies. Perhaps with some railroads and inventions? Still, the fact that it seems by definition to be impossible for pops to make and keep money without editing files.... am I perhaps doing something wrong? Ignoring another factor?