So why has fort movement blocking been disabled for AI Countries?

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pvtpeaches

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24955594_1531220646914363_4637187929205490363_o.jpg


This has happened multiple times already in this campaign. But no worries, forts still block all my movements. Is this like the decision to give the AI military access across the entire world when at war no matter the AI relationship to other AIs? or is this a bug. It gets hard at times to keep up with what is bugged or is the new work around some other bugs.
 

Viking

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Reman has a nice explanation for how it works


basically only hostile forts block movement, neutral forts don't, the provence fort in anjou doesn't help you nor hinder you at all.

In this case the enemy army is in Armor and is zoced by both the normandie and brest forts, in this case he is moving onto the brest fort. If you want to hide your army hide it BEHIND a fort, not on it.
 

tobias.mb

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Maybe you could elaborate, why you think France should have been blocked?
Reaching Armor from the south is clearly not blocked. And Armor is in ZOC of Finistere. You can (almost) always move from ZOC provinces to the Fort province.
 

Gratak

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Maybe you could elaborate, why you think France should have been blocked?
Reaching Armor from the south is clearly not blocked. And Armor is in ZOC of Finistere. You can (almost) always move from ZOC provinces to the Fort province.
Always to hostile ones. This part of the newer ZoC system is way better than in the old one: There is was "random" to which one you could walk if there was more then one. But anyway, OP is just losing a war and needs someone else to take the blame...
 

FrogCrusher

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The fun fact with the current system is (if I'm not mistaken) that if France had taken Finistere fort, they would be blocked because of Armor being in Normandie ZoC only :D
The well known "take fort to have less movement liberty" WAD thing...
 

pvtpeaches

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Reman has a nice explanation for how it works


basically only hostile forts block movement, neutral forts don't, the provence fort in anjou doesn't help you nor hinder you at all.

In this case the enemy army is in Armor and is zoced by both the normandie and brest forts, in this case he is moving onto the brest fort. If you want to hide your army hide it BEHIND a fort, not on it.
Thank you for the video. I was very miss guided in how I though the forts worked.
 

TheMeInTeam

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It's not that the AI breaks the rules, it's that the rules are broken:



Here's an example of player ignoring fort. What's sad about this picture is that there are multiple ways this could have happened, this order can't be re-issued, and it could result in the army getting 100% trapped with no return province...unless another army comes by to alter its movement rules yet again.

Despite these junk interactions, you still occasionally see people claiming the rules are straightforward or simple lol. The AI surprises players because it can just check valid paths and use one, it doesn't need to memorize a bunch of esoteric junk and broken interactions like what we're seeing here. That said, the poor rules do allow us to do some things to ignore forts that the AI almost never sets up intentionally.
 

FrogCrusher

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TheMeInTeam

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You know, instead of complaining that the ZOC rules are junk, you could state clearly which rule causes what exact problem. How do you expect anything to get fixed, if you just make a general statement that the ZOC are bad?

I've said my change preferences enough times that if devs care they could use mine or someone else's. It's clearly not a priority fix (same with broken waitfest new world, coalition war tooltips, peace deals, and using 1000's and 1000's of clicks/game unnecessarily due to having to do stuff one province at a time) and I see no reason I should either copy/paste repeat it all the time or put more effort into the discussion than we have official word on the problem.

My picture clearly shows a problem, but it's not the only problem. I even alluded to another one in that same post; two armies on the same province fighting the same freaking battles can't go to the same places. You also can't look at a screenshot and determine the movement rules for each army shown...doing so is impossible since you only see the return province for selected armies. The rules themselves are hidden and inconsistent to what is visually presented...factors you can't determine at a glance influence where you can go given otherwise identical fort pictures.

These are serious problems and frankly they should have been addressed before the fort beta was rolled out and kept in beta for > 2 years.
 

Leon12

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You can always travel between overlapping forts. Presumably this also applies to the capital fort (bug? WAD?)

Don't build overlapping forts. I don't and in 500+ hours of gameplay have never had a "wtf how are they not blocked" moment.

I will agree that the Zone of Control mechanics are somewhat arcane and could do with another look. But in my experience they are not broken. Neither does the AI get special benefits.
 

TheMeInTeam

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You can always travel between overlapping forts. Presumably this also applies to the capital fort (bug? WAD?)

Don't build overlapping forts. I don't and in 500+ hours of gameplay have never had a "wtf how are they not blocked" moment.

I will agree that the Zone of Control mechanics are somewhat arcane and could do with another look. But in my experience they are not broken. Neither does the AI get special benefits.

Regardless of experience, it is a bit disingenuous to claim the rules aren't broken while not knowing the rules :p. I doubt for example you could list all of the ways my screenshot is possible, plus at least one that would nevertheless let me ignore that fort but which the screenshot rules out.
 

Leon12

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it is a bit disingenuous to claim the rules aren't broken while not knowing the rules

Oh, for sure - I was a bit unclear, sorry. What I mean is that the majority of posts I see about forts "not working" or AI "ignoring forts" are actually people breaking rules that are super obvious once you know them.

Having said that, the rules are not intuitively obvious and there do seem to be bizarre edge cases sometimes with allied/neutral ZoCs overlapping with yours. But IMO the big problem is that the basic rules are non-obvious and not explained in-game so people keep breaking them without realising.

I know this because I used to make the same mistakes all the time. "Unbroken line of adjacent forts? My borders are invinc- wait why is my capital under siege" :p
 

tobias.mb

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My picture clearly shows a problem
Yes, but what exactly is the problem? Again: How do you expect anything to change if you don't at least say clearly what the problem is?
Also, to my knowlegde, almost all 'problems' come from the return province. But you can't really do without that, so simply complaining that it is 'broken' won't help.
I've said my change preferences enough times
You don't seriously expect people to remember everything you posted at some point, or dig through your post history?
And I'm sorry to say this but repeatedly saying the same things, is exactly how you get your point across. And it's easy enough. Just make one post explaining the problems and then link it whenever you want.
I doubt for example you could list all of the ways my screenshot is possible, plus at least one that would nevertheless let me ignore that fort but which the screenshot rules out.
And that condescending tone of yours isn't really helping you either. You just keep on going on about how you understand the rules so well, and everyone else doesn't. What do you even expect to achieve that way?
Explain yourself, if you want to be understood. Else you'll just be ignored, since people don't know what you are talking about. (Even if you are right)
 

TheMeInTeam

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Yes, but what exactly is the problem? Again: How do you expect anything to change if you don't at least say clearly what the problem is?
Also, to my knowlegde, almost all 'problems' come from the return province. But you can't really do without that, so simply complaining that it is 'broken' won't help.

The problem is self-evident to looking at the picture. I have an army moving into Ahmadnagar from a maintained fort, while the return province is to the north in Gujurat. It's all pictured there. I took an army from the north and moved it right past a fully maintained fort.

There are 4+ ways this move might have happened, and only some are ruled out by the visible return province. Had this army not been selected, any of the 4+ explanations would have worked for this (otherwise illegal) move.

You don't seriously expect people to remember everything you posted at some point, or dig through your post history?
And I'm sorry to say this but repeatedly saying the same things, is exactly how you get your point across. And it's easy enough. Just make one post explaining the problems and then link it whenever you want.

Of course not. But I also don't seriously expect repeating it to cause a different outcome in terms of changing than previous attempts. The devs have left in multiple objective bugs I have reported 4-5 times for years without acknowledging the threads' existence and have had plenty of exposure to complaints and alternative fort rule suggestions. No sense beating my head against the wall expecting something to actually change, but I'll still vent that this implementation is trash.

I have even had some of my threads reporting the offensive coalition war bug disappear (some date back to the previous forum layout), but no actual acknowledgement or fix for an objective bug. This is not an environment where It's reasonable to ask me to respect the process much, without some evidence that practices will change.

And that condescending tone of yours isn't really helping you either. You just keep on going on about how you understand the rules so well, and everyone else doesn't. What do you even expect to achieve that way?

No, to be specific I am pointing out that people claiming the rules "work" in some capacity don't know the rules, making the claim that the rules work awkward. I did not claim to be an expert on the rules, though I do seem to know more than most players.

I want as many people to hate on the broken fort rules as possible, maybe influencing a change indirectly. As a single random person on the internet, I don't have much power beyond that, especially when it is painfully evident that simply reporting objective/routinely encountered issues multiple times carries no guarantee or even reasonable assurance of it being addressed in the next two years.

Anyway, they can start by making the possible move rules evident from looking at the screen. The fact that there are 4+ explanations for another otherwise-illegal move and you can't even determine which is in play without directly selecting the army is by itself a serious objective flaw in any title that claims to carry the "strategy" tag.
 
Last edited:

Gratak

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It's not that the AI breaks the rules, it's that the rules are broken:



Here's an example of player ignoring fort. What's sad about this picture is that there are multiple ways this could have happened, this order can't be re-issued, and it could result in the army getting 100% trapped with no return province...unless another army comes by to alter its movement rules yet again.

Despite these junk interactions, you still occasionally see people claiming the rules are straightforward or simple lol. The AI surprises players because it can just check valid paths and use one, it doesn't need to memorize a bunch of esoteric junk and broken interactions like what we're seeing here. That said, the poor rules do allow us to do some things to ignore forts that the AI almost never sets up intentionally.
What are the multiple explanations for this? You probably used the mothball bug. That one is basically player only though.
 

TheMeInTeam

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What are the multiple explanations for this? You probably used the mothball bug. That one is basically player only though.

Mothballed forts not blocking ZoC is by design.

This war is against Sind, so mothball option is only possible via alliance with Gujurat but it is indeed something that could allow what we see. In this case that isn't what I used; the stack depicted first moved into Bengal to kick them out of this same war, so the fort in question has been fully maintained for > 1 year. Gujurat is neutral in this war, but does allow access.

Other common possibilities, if the return province isn't shown:

- Hisn Kayfa lands in Vijayanagar, marches north into the fort, then back into Ahmadnagar (not bypassing a ZoC, but makes the ordered move possible). Return province would be to the south.
- Hisn Kayfa lands 1 regiment in Vijayanagar, runs into the fort. Hisn Kayfa moves 29 regiments from the north by land and merges them onto the side with the 1 stack, alowing them to move to Ahmadnagar (but no longer to return to Gujurat, unless they use another army from the North to merge again).

Much less likely:

- Fort under construction completed after move order was given.

What actually happened:

- Move order was given in spite of the forts existence and full maintenance because it was valid at the time.

We're up to 5 already, but I might be missing more. This is not what a decent mechanic looks like in a strategy game. Players play this incessant little minigame constantly or they get surprises since if it's not a reorganization move-through trick, the AI will find the pathing sometimes. The AI will (usually) not pull what I did to ignore this fort.