So, why are US state/county borders mostly straight lines...

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ZappyVlaams

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... and don't say "because new world", because these are Mexican state borders:

460px-Division_politica_mexico.svg.png

In comparison, these are Texas county borders. Look at the top rectangle:

Texas_population_map2.png

I have been wondering about this for a while. It doesn't really make sense for me that they just carve up territories into rectangles, when these regions also must have rivers and such.

If someone could point me into the right direction, thank you very much.
 

Arilou

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IIRC at least some of the borders were drawn up before the area was "properly" mapped, so while there were rivers, mountains, etc. the US mapmakers didn't know where they were...
 

Avernite

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I would say it's probably a function of mapmaking versus population.

So far as I can tell, early mapmaking had mostly been about points. We control fort x, town y and river z. Later mapmaking was more about 'we control everything behind line xyz'. Where the previous mapmaking was already a thing, that line was drawn between the points, sometimes straightening things out (but not always) to make it slightly less annoying. In large parts of the USA (and Canada, Australia, Africa) the line-drawing happened before the point-controlling, but Mexico was already well-established and populated before that point.
 

Xeorm

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Obligatory CGP Grey link: [video=youtube;qMkYlIA7mgw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMkYlIA7mgw&index=3&list=PLqs5ohhass_QZtSkX06DmWOaEaadwmw_D[/video]

There's also the differences in the rate and why South America was colonized compared to the north.

Plus, in texas if you'll notice the straight parts are in low populated areas. That's not by coincidence. No one really cares about where the line is drawn in useless desert.
 

Andrelvis

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There's also the differences in the rate and why South America was colonized compared to the north.

But Mexico is in North America too.
 

bruebottom

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"... and don't say "because new world", because these are Mexican state borders:"


Because of the new world, but let mean try explain why this might be the case...

I'm thinking the borders in Mexico, and further south, is due to Inca and Mayan tribal bounderies, add in the efforts from the Spanish and the nations that now exist leaves us with where we are today. This is in very general terms as my history of this part of the world is not my strong part.

In North America there should be tribal divides from the Indians, but they did not have the politcal power to counter that of the new immagrants from Europe. Those tribal lines where possibly ignored as the new states filed out the map.

That leaves your question at - how did the individual states, of the USA, come to terms with each other? Some thing like the home stead act may have an effect.
 
Last edited:

gagenater

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But Mexico is in North America too.

Yes, but Mexico had a significant sized native population that already existed, and was still around when the Spaniards gained control of it. It was already split up geographically in a sensible way based on rivers, mountains, administrative or tribal boundaries, etc. For the U.S. and Canada in most places the tribes were to few, or politically too unimportant (or both) to have any influence on how borders came about. Instead they focused on slicing the space up into spaces such that no citizen would be more than X days travel from the state capital, and Y hours from a local (county usually) seat. Many of the subdivisions in U.S. states are squares too. To continue with the Texas theme (and because it's a good example too), here are the counties of Texas.

texas-county-map.gif


As you can see, a few of them are topographically based, as they were settled when the state was formed. The rest however are grid squares with a bit of 'fixing' to make them all fit in the state boundaries properly and match up with the existing no gridded boundaries.

In general this pattern is repeated throughout the U.S. - local areas that had settlements in them have geographically useful shapes - be they states or smaller areas. Areas that weren't settled much have some random shape - usually something with squares or rectangles because it's easy on the mapmakers, surveyors, potential buyers and sellers of property, etc.
 

Culise

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That leaves your question at - how did the individual states, of the USA, come to terms with each other? Some thing like the home stead act may have an effect.
It was pretty much as you say: the Federal government frequently decided these things in a general or specific sense, especially as the larger original territories were organized into smaller territorial stretches that would become states, and the state would confirm these borders in its constitution when it applied for statehood. Certain fundamental territorial divisions frequently followed local rivers - the Mississippi, the Ohio, the Missouri, the Colorado, the Columbia, the Red. Many others were arbitrary flat lines; east of the Mississippi, many of these were rooted in pre-Independence colonial charters from lands ceded by the original colonies to federal organization, to wit Tennessee (North Carolina), Kentucky (Virginia), Alabama and Mississippi (Georgia). Others were flat lines rooted in geography - they were drawn from some geographic feature off in a direction until they hit something else, such as the border between Ohio and Michigan (which was actually, interestingly, drawn from a landmark in Indiana that wasn't followed for the border with Indiana, hence why the Indiana-Michigan and Ohio-Michigan borders don't match up). Others were drawn by latitude, especially in the Great American Desert (as it was termed then) where there were few major river confluences and major lakes to choose from - Kansas, Wyoming, Colorado, and so forth.

Interestingly, due to the fact that Congress frequently had to organize territories before detailed surveys of the land could be made, this could result in odd quirks. The northernmost border of Minnesota with Canada had the weird quirk that we today know as the Angle (which can only be reached overland by crossing Canada) due to the fact that people assumed the source of the Mississippi to be further north than it actually was, and the Michigan-Ohio border was supposed to go from the southernmost extent of Lake Michigan eastward until it reached Lake Erie (the dispute over how this line was to be drawn, thanks to Ohio defining it subtly differently from the original Federal wording, became the brief, poorly-named Toledo War that was won by everyone except Wisconsin). Similarly, the Honey War between Missouri and Iowa was "fought" (insofar as anyone can use that word for a bloodless conflict that included militias equipped with blunderbusses, flintlocks, and a sausage stuffer) over a lexical ambiguity in precisely which rapids the straight line of the border between the two states was to be drawn from. The Kentucky-Tennessee border is yet another such example of geographic snafus, which is why there's a "divot" in Tennessee west of the Tennessee river. This wasn't immune to popular appeal, either: just across the river, also, the Missouri-Arkansas border was supposed to follow the exact same latitude line, but gained its "boot" when the locals protested to Congress about being transferred to Arkansas. Every single time, it had to be arbitrated by the federal government in the end.
 
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Andrelvis

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Yes, but Mexico had a significant sized native population that already existed, and was still around when the Spaniards gained control of it. It was already split up geographically in a sensible way based on rivers, mountains, administrative or tribal boundaries, etc. For the U.S. and Canada in most places the tribes were to few, or politically too unimportant (or both) to have any influence on how borders came about.

I was just pointing out this most common mistake of thinking Mexico is in South America.

In any case, the situation you describe for the US and Canada regarding Indians is quite similar to the one Brazil faced as well. And yet, look at Brazilian state boundaries:

545px-Brazil_Labelled_Map.svg.png


Brazilian provincial borders were linear during the 16th and 17th centuries:

Brazil_states1534.png


...but since then, as people came to know more about the terrain, more sensible provincial borders were established.
 

gagenater

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I was just pointing out this most common mistake of thinking Mexico is in South America.

In any case, the situation you describe for the US and Canada regarding Indians is quite similar to the one Brazil faced as well. And yet, look at Brazilian state boundaries:

545px-Brazil_Labelled_Map.svg.png


Brazilian provincial borders were linear during the 16th and 17th centuries:

Brazil_states1534.png


...but since then, as people came to know more about the terrain, more sensible provincial borders were established.

U.S. borders were never quite that silly though, so there was no tremendous 'urge' to fix them. Also, most of the U.S. state borders at least west of the Mississippi were laid out AFTER the development of railroads. The general thinking was that except for really major rivers and mountains (the Rockies, The Mississippi and some of it's major tributaries) that terrain should not be a terribly important factor in laying out political boundaries.

Another big issue is that Brazil has gone through several different types of government, and during some of them (monarchy, Military dictatorship) the size, shape, population, etc. of your province or state were probably irrelevent. The U.S. has only had one form of government and organization since 1789 when the constitution was adopted. Continuously with no breaks at all since that time, the political power of each state has been determined by it's population. Any attempt to 'rationalize' borders at all would be tremendously opposed by at least one party standing to loose power unless you are talking about VERY small changes - and even then they probably won't happen.
 

magritte2

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I would guess that the Public Land Survey System dividing areas into six-mile by six-mile townships must have had a significant impact. Most of these areas were
thinly settled if at all before the General Land Office was established in 1851.
 

Rubidium

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Yeah, the political status of states in the US really can't be compared to provinces in other countries. States are distinct political entities with a great deal of power; changing state borders is extremely hard to do (it has happened, but very rarely, especially compared to how often many other countries redraw provinces). Counties, on the other hand, can and do change, but it's hardly a major priority (and note that most of the "straight-line" counties are also ones with relatively few people in them).

Don't forget that much of the US interior was basically unknown in Washington until the mid-19th century, whereas much of Latin America was much better mapped and settled during colonial times; that's a function not only of population but also of time, as the Spanish had been in the New World for a century before the English showed up. So the US drew lots of straight lines, and then it was too difficult to change them.

Compare with Canada and especially Australia, where you have similar dynamics and thus also lots of straight lines.

Besides, river borders have their own problems: think of the major American metropolitan areas (e.g. New York, DC, St. Louis) which are located along river borders and consequently split between states. Arbitrary lines of latitude don't naturally tend to attract settlements and thus are less likely to cause later logistical problems. Not that that was a priority, but it is a happy coincidence.
 

gagenater

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Another problem with river boundaries is that rivers move. There are a bunch of places especially in the lower Mississippi where the river has grown new meanders, made island, eroded away old ones and cut off old loops. In some places depending on the border follows the river at a certain time, so there are properties split between two states, properties separated by 2-3 km of river from them state, taxes being paid on land that is now underwater, and new land which is not assigned clearly to one state or the other.
 

magritte2

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Another problem with river boundaries is that rivers move. There are a bunch of places especially in the lower Mississippi where the river has grown new meanders, made island, eroded away old ones and cut off old loops. In some places depending on the border follows the river at a certain time, so there are properties split between two states, properties separated by 2-3 km of river from them state, taxes being paid on land that is now underwater, and new land which is not assigned clearly to one state or the other.

That's even more problematic when it's a national border like the Rio Grande. Rivers have often been used as borders because it's a very easy way to define a border, but they're really not very good ones. And they tend not to correspond to cultural boundaries because they tend to facilitate social and economic interactions rather than impede them. Then there's the whole problem of who owns the water rights. Mountain ranges make much better barriers, even if they're precise location is trickier to describe.
 

Capt. Kiwi

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We've moved to river catchment boundaries at a regional level here, for those reasons. But it's only possible because lower tiers of government here are much weaker than US states - essentially existing at the Crown's pleasure. It makes modding Paradox maps for historical accuracy an interesting exercise:

Provinces_of_new_zealand_timeline1.gif


And so on through various counties and other divisions to the present day, with changes still being looked at.
 

superjames1992

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North Carolina is an interesting case with a mix of both geographic and linear borders. The east, which was settled earlier, has more geographic borders, as do the mountains, but the Piedmont (including the county where I live) is filled with square and rectangle-shaped counties.

ncmap1.jpg
 

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Abdul Goatherd

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U.S. borders were never quite that silly though, so there was no tremendous 'urge' to fix them. Also, most of the U.S. state borders at least west of the Mississippi were laid out AFTER the development of railroads. The general thinking was that except for really major rivers and mountains (the Rockies, The Mississippi and some of it's major tributaries) that terrain should not be a terribly important factor in laying out political boundaries.

Another big issue is that Brazil has gone through several different types of government, and during some of them (monarchy, Military dictatorship) the size, shape, population, etc. of your province or state were probably irrelevent. The U.S. has only had one form of government and organization since 1789 when the constitution was adopted. Continuously with no breaks at all since that time, the political power of each state has been determined by it's population. Any attempt to 'rationalize' borders at all would be tremendously opposed by at least one party standing to loose power unless you are talking about VERY small changes - and even then they probably won't happen.

Well, don't let Andrelvis fool you. Those weren't quite provincial borders. They were captaincy claims of very early colonial times. Coast was divided into fourteen parcels, marked by latitude-to-latitude, and sold to developers in one go. The parallel lines are just latitudes stretched conjecturally inland. Perhaps less than half those parcels actually even saw a settlement.

Early North American colonies had similar linear latitude claims.

charterwestward.gif