So when are we getting espionage?

[Zaltys]

It does seem hard to balance.
Not all species would want to participate in spy games, so how to implement it without putting Honorable Warrior types and isolationists at a major disadvantage?

 

[Beagá]

Espionage should be limited to getting intel on enemy designs (which already helps a LOT, because decisions regarding plasma tech or disruptor tech is very important). Tech stealing adds a VERY deep layer of gameplay that needs a whole game structure built around it. For Master of Orion it´s ok. For this one... it wouldn´t, not in the current stage the game is in.

 

[Tekadiel]

I believe there is great potential for espionage but it must be steer free from adding to much micro management by blowing up buildings and the like. But the faction system, the importance of ship design and a sooner or later to be implemented casus belli system would probably work well with an espionage system.

 

[MaarekStele]

First diplomacy and trade, then espionage.

For all, who think, what espionage is unnecessary: can't you see, that Stellaris could do with this? Not just boring stealing or sabotage. Something, that can provide you with secrets of other races (edge in negotiations or even blackmail), give you opportunities in battle (dropping shields of space station or receive plans of enemy cruiser +15 to damage), let you intervene in election or frame someone before Fallen Empire.

With fractions and right implementation game will shine.

Taking down your opponent/rival without physical confrontation.

 

[Ikael]

Trade and diplomacy first, espionage latter, please. That being said, the new faction system could very well be a great ally of an in-depth espionage system. Less "blowing things randomly" and more "manipulating the levers of power in enemy empires in order to see them crumble from within".

 

[ashbery76]

The problem with 4x espionage is that it's nothing like real espionage.

 

[Rubido]

Things like "Intel" like in HOI4, where you can see where enemy units are and such if your decryption stat is high enough, or at least significantly higher than the enemy's encryption (I admit it, though, I'm not sure how intel in HOI4 works, to be honest )? Sure. Covert stuff, perhaps implemented as event chains? Quite possibly, if implemented well. Secret CK2-style cloak and dagger scheming? Absolutely.

"Espionage" like sending spies on missions, sabotage, and so on? I'm highly sceptical, and I'm glad I'm the only one.

In fact, I think CK2 nailed "espionage". Stuff like assassinations and other cloak-and-dagger stuff isn't done by generic "spies", but by potentially anyone -- your family members, your friends, and your loyal allies, Song of Ice and Fire-style. Having to deal with the illoyalty of your admirals, generals, guvernours, and other staff members, like we're going to have to with characters' political "issues" and the faction system in general in 1.5, sounds so much better than generic and, to be honest, pretty clichéd "espionage".

Edit: also, as others said, counters. I don't mind major stuff, even "Star Wars"-level stuff where a battle station loses its shields temporarily due to sabotage, but there has to be a way to prepare for these things, and detect them when they happen so you can counter them. The same way you counter enemy ships, you should be able to stop enemy spies and commandos. Also, I don't want this implemented as an "espionage" system, but rather as rare events, probably implemented as "story arc" event chains.

CK2 reference is the right idea. The main point is how it can be balanced. Offensive missions can be limited by availability. Like tech cards, they can be numerous but you would get only few of them at any given time (also ethos, trait and ascension perk related missions as an option). More powerful missions (said shields of a certain battle station) could be very rare (for example they can be obtained during some events or by chain of other missions). When in progress, offensive mission will attract attention of loyal subjects (as agents will try to use enemy factions or leaders) and this could lead to discovery and termination of a plot (rare) or just cause some gossips or strange events (receive a warning). In later case you could activate always available defensive mission at the cost of influence or energy, trying to foil enemy plans (THIS is there balance is important).

And don't misunderstand, missions is not some "one time effect" things. They can be used for infiltration, planting sleeping agents, influencing enemy factions. All sort of things. For example, the conclusion of infiltration mission can be establishing contact with some minority faction and then enactment of a law with
annual subsidies for them in your senate )

I don't really know if some "agents" will be needed. New type of leader, perhaps, but not necessary.

So, no micro, no repeat the same things over and over and vast possibilities (could be also included some research, diplomatic or prospection missions).

Something like this... In any case, i would like first to try Banks and see how faction system will turn out. Then we can discuss some new potential espionage possibilities.

 

[safe-keeper]

The problem with 4x espionage is that it's nothing like real espionage.

Exactly this. Which is why I wonder why it's even called espionage and not things like "commando raids", at least for stuff like blowing up enemy assets.

 

[Rubido]

Exactly this. Which is why I wonder why it's even called espionage and not things like "commando raids", at least for stuff like blowing up enemy assets.

Stellaris is not 4x. It's mix of 4x and grand strategy, you know. And after adding trade and diplomacy it will be more grand strategy that 4x for sure.

Edit: and i not talking about raids ) It's the same system as in CK2, just with some variations.