so what's wrong with Ming?

[abcdgh]

before the recent update, i played japan and found that Ming would never fabricate claim unless the target provinces' owner is his rival
but after the recent update, this big blob seems to become more violence:
he start to fabricate claims on provinces in tibet, indochina, manchuria and so on, and of course he can take whatever he wants
and he just warns everybody around him which he never did before update

before

after

seems i can't achieve "the white elephant" easily, right?
oh, i missed the good merciful Ming before

 

[Wizzington]

Depends on which AI personality it rolls, the current one is Militarist so naturally more aggressive. Nothing to do with the patch.

 

[abcdgh]

Depends on which AI personality it rolls, the current one is Militarist so naturally more aggressive. Nothing to do with the patch.

wow, never expect Wiz would reply it and it's so soon
i got it, thx

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Mandate lost +10 might be a little much .

 

[abcdgh]

Mandate lost +10 might be a little much .

i don't really think so
as my exprience, ai usually can handle lost mandate for once, but Ming will not really broke down until the second time

 

[Peachrocks]

Emperor of Ming dies event *troll face*.

Qing does really need something so it can form at least 1% of the time. Also warnings are dip free junk...

 

[kitemasaki]

i don't really think so
as my exprience, ai usually can handle lost mandate for once, but Ming will not really broke down until the second time

It *is* too much. No nation in the game is handicapped as harshly. The former was fine because it was boosted by civil war. Now you can have +20 unrest from both "disasters" which no nation has to deal with in the game. There is no justification for this change they didnt even document.

 

[Kwami]

If it makes AI Ming fail more often, then I'm all for it.

 

[Pigeoncount]

Emperor of Ming dies event *troll face*.

Qing does really need something so it can form at least 1% of the time. Also warnings are dip free junk...

I've seen Qing form without player involvement before. Always annoys me when I see it, as I'm playing a game where I end up expanding over there, and I ruin their hard work.

 

[Thrake]

before the recent update, i played japan and found that Ming would never fabricate claim unless the target provinces' owner is his rival
but after the recent update, this big blob seems to become more violence:
he start to fabricate claims on provinces in tibet, indochina, manchuria and so on, and of course he can take whatever he wants
and he just warns everybody around him which he never did before update

before

after

seems i can't achieve "the white elephant" easily, right?
oh, i missed the good merciful Ming before

Well it did like conquer 3 dirt poor provinces... We're still far from a BBB syndrom.

 

[GFW]

Nice to see Ming do something other than sit there and become less and less relevant until rebels tear it apart.

 

[Peachrocks]

I've seen Qing form without player involvement before. Always annoys me when I see it, as I'm playing a game where I end up expanding over there, and I ruin their hard work.

I think I saw it once and that was only when Ming collapsed more often then it didn't. In recent times, no, never, not even close. It's not impossible, but it's extremely unlikely.

 

[zsImmortal]

New Mandate lost is way too much. Pretty much all rebels spawn at the same time, it's a joke. Ming can't deal with that, it already had a hard time keeping all its parts before, now it's just obnoxious.

 

[Nuklearius]

It#

 

[TheMeInTeam]

When was this change introduced? Because with the latest beta patch I've seen Ming surviving the loss of mandate around 4-5 times in one of my games and then they begun stomping Russia... So they are a bit more stable than they should be, but I like it

They stealth-nerfed Ming in 1.13 official release, doubling the mandate of heaven lost unrest.

 

[Peachrocks]

They stealth-nerfed Ming in 1.13 official release, doubling the mandate of heaven lost unrest.

Stealth nerfs??? Again....???

 

[Dutchman251]

Ming is way more powerful nevertheless, and they could easily handle the loss of the mandate of heaven in 1.12. Good they changed that

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Stealth nerfs??? Again....???

That shouldn't even be a surprise. They left the coring rule patch note from beta in official release despite knowing full well that it's demonstrably and objectively wrong lol. What's another undocumented change or ten ?

Ming certainly shatters like glass now, if that's the intention.

Edit: I'm amused at the disagrees on this one, which isn't subjective. Someone want to come out of the woodwork and actually address why I'm mistaken, if you feel that is the case?

 

[yerm]

The problem with Ming is this asinine idea that they should be scripted to fail at historical proportions and be replaced by the Qing, every game, and it is an affront to immersion and an implausible outcome if the Ming survive, expand, and excel.

Meanwhile, while the Ming are hitting their historical decline and collapse, Europe is absolutely demolishing itself in the 30 years war, Spain is losing the low countries, Portugal is suffering heavily under a union and will end up ceding power outside Brazil around the same time the Qing form, Poland and Russia are being pulverized by Vikings with cannons with Poland in particularly being truly devastated by the deluge, and England is torn by civil war.

Historically, China recovers and prospers, but under a different dynasty than the Ming. Just like France recovers and prospers, under a different dynasty than the Valois. Poland recovers and briefly prospers, but not under the Jagiellons. Portugal does alright with Brazil and makes some modest recoveries, and England obviously goes on to dominate, but only after the ruling dynasty is turned over (in Portugal's case from relative scratch).

So, it is good and righteous and desirable for China, called Ming rather than China, to collapse, and an abomination if they do not. Meanwhile, if Valois, for some reason named France instead, do not simultaneously collapse and get replaced by the Bourbon nation, also called France instead, this is fine. If this last paragraph makes no sense, good, neither does Ming and its nerfs.

 

[Peachrocks]

The problem with Ming is this asinine idea that they should be scripted to fail at historical proportions and be replaced by the Qing, every game, and it is an affront to immersion and an implausible outcome if the Ming survive, expand, and excel.

Meanwhile, while the Ming are hitting their historical decline and collapse, Europe is absolutely demolishing itself in the 30 years war, Spain is losing the low countries, Portugal is suffering heavily under a union and will end up ceding power outside Brazil around the same time the Qing form, Poland and Russia are being pulverized by Vikings with cannons with Poland in particularly being truly devastated by the deluge, and England is torn by civil war.

Historically, China recovers and prospers, but under a different dynasty than the Ming. Just like France recovers and prospers, under a different dynasty than the Valois. Poland recovers and briefly prospers, but not under the Jagiellons. Portugal does alright with Brazil and makes some modest recoveries, and England obviously goes on to dominate, but only after the ruling dynasty is turned over (in Portugal's case from relative scratch).

So, it is good and righteous and desirable for China, called Ming rather than China, to collapse, and an abomination if they do not. Meanwhile, if Valois, for some reason named France instead, do not simultaneously collapse and get replaced by the Bourbon nation, also called France instead, this is fine. If this last paragraph makes no sense, good, neither does Ming and its nerfs.

For one I wasn't aware of the stealth nerf and do not support it. For two, Mandate of Heaven is a terrible way to replicate the... difficulties Ming had in managing its problems. Having Ming explode into bits and pieces isn't really the answer. At least not long term.

It's not the fact Ming dynasty doesn't collapse every game, it's for all intents and purposes the Qing dynasty almost doesn't exist at all. Still, the naming thing is a good point.