So what's an immersion pack supposed to be?

So what's an immersion pack supposed to be?

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Lady Lacroix

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My thoughts were that an "Immersion pack" was supposed to include things that are more or less tangential to the actual game experience (new unit models, music, maybe a few new events, ect.) And not actual mechanical changes to the game experience itself like this latest release for EU4.

Now I'll admit I'm not so much complaining since it's priced appropriately and I won't assume that things like pirate factions or being able to ship out your minorities will be the next big game changers exactly... It just seems slightly disingenuous to sell this as "Not a proper DLC!" whilst it has all the makings of just kind of a weak DLC like Res Republica.

What are your thoughts on this?
 

Groogy

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Immersion Packs are small focused DLCs on a specific area in the world. The first one was Third Rome. They are supposed to be content heavy(mission trees, events, new governments, etc.) as programmers will be mostly working on bugs or similar stuff but it does not mean that zero work is done for features.
 

_Perun_

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Immersion Packs are small focused DLCs on a specific area in the world. The first one was Third Rome. They are supposed to be content heavy(mission trees, events, new governments, etc.) as programmers will be mostly working on bugs or similar stuff but it does not mean that zero work is done for features.
And why is it exactly important to call small dlcs "immersion packs" instead of just "small dlcs"? Being obliged to work upon stiff formulae doesnt seem to be especially creativity-friendly.
 

newtlord

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More to the point, they often throw in things not focused on a specific area of the world. I would rather like to play with the new fleet mechanics (which aren't any more closely tied to Iberia than they are to Britain or the Subcontinent [or Italy, which is sorely due for attention]), but, since I'm not interested in playing in Iberia (or as an ahistorical-memetic pirate), they would be about the only thing I'd be getting from the expansion, so I'm probably going to save my money.

If you had taken Naval Doctrines from Rule Britannia, and flagships and bombardments from the upcoming DLC, and put them in a hypothetical Naval Combat expansion, I would probably have put my money down for it, but as it is, the things I want are spread so thin amongst the things I don't that I am falling out of the habit of purchasing EUIV DLC.
 

Piotrzeci

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Immersion Packs are small focused DLCs on a specific area in the world. The first one was Third Rome. They are supposed to be content heavy(mission trees, events, new governments, etc.) as programmers will be mostly working on bugs or similar stuff but it does not mean that zero work is done for features.
Wound't by this logic Dharma be an Immersion Pack? What about Cradle, it focused just on the middle east?
 

Groogy

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They are not small. The thematic focus is not what alone defines an immersion pack.
 

Nyrael

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Wound't by this logic Dharma be an Immersion Pack? What about Cradle, it focused just on the middle east?
Nope, because from PDS' perspective MoH, CoC and Dharma aren't "small focused DLCs". Dharma's main feature, Political Reforms, was also not unique or inspired by India.
 

Lor360

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Immersion Packs are small focused DLCs on a specific area in the world. The first one was Third Rome. They are supposed to be content heavy(mission trees, events, new governments, etc.) as programmers will be mostly working on bugs or similar stuff but it does not mean that zero work is done for features.
Sounds to me like you have too little programers and too much event designers.
 

Alfray Stryke

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Have you considered having more programers and less mission designers?
I believe as the adage goes, "You can't have nine women make a baby in a month" :) Sometimes throwing more people on a project will counter-intuitively slow it down.
 

PhoenixG

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They are not small. The thematic focus is not what alone defines an immersion pack.
Well that is the problem. immersion pack shouldn't be determine if it's small or not, but on the thematic focus. That is what the confusion and most of the hate comes from. One would expect it focus on a theme/region of the map. It adds flavour to that region. Like stuff that you add in the "poland" patch that is the stuff of immersion packs.

imo this kinda confusion started when you guys start copying steralis and gives each patch a name, kinda forcing you to focus a region to justify the name of the patch.

You should start thinking about the bigger mechanics you want to develop and that put in to the bigger dlc and what local stuff in the smaller immersion packs. For example in Dharma you should split the goverment chance, trade company building, charter land, upgrading CoT from the indian flavour and mughal change. With the part become the dlc and the latter the immersion pack. Of course you'll need to add more stuff to it to justify the price.

That is how I think about the different type.
 

Lor360

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I believe as the adage goes, "You can't have nine women make a baby in a month" :) Sometimes throwing more people on a project will counter-intuitively slow it down.
Stellaris and CK 2 just released DLCs with about 6-7 fundamentaly new mechanics combined. Its not even fair to call them mechanics, they are more like entire systems.
 

Alfray Stryke

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Stellaris and CK 2 just released DLCs with about 6-7 fundamentaly new mechanics combined. Its not even fair to call them mechanics, they are more like entire systems.
Assuming you mean Megacorp and Holy Fury? Megacorp was very much in development during PDXCON (Wiz showed a WIP teaser during his talk) meanwhile Holy Fury and Dharma were announced then. Might not be fair to compare an Immersive Pack (such as Golden Century) to a rework like Holy Fury, Megacorp or Dharma, IMO.

I'll agree that there are mechanics in EUIV I'd love to see reworked, but disagree that the solution is "apply more programmers".
 

blackchoas

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Assuming you mean Megacorp and Holy Fury? Megacorp was very much in development during PDXCON (Wiz showed a WIP teaser during his talk) meanwhile Holy Fury and Dharma were announced then. Might not be fair to compare an Immersive Pack (such as Golden Century) to a rework like Holy Fury, Megacorp or Dharma, IMO.

I'll agree that there are mechanics in EUIV I'd love to see reworked, but disagree that the solution is "apply more programmers".
This is part of the issue though, the devs seems to think they should be making an immersion pack while the fans think they need to be working on bigger problems
 

Lor360

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Assuming you mean Megacorp and Holy Fury? Megacorp was very much in development during PDXCON (Wiz showed a WIP teaser during his talk) meanwhile Holy Fury and Dharma were announced then. Might not be fair to compare an Immersive Pack (such as Golden Century) to a rework like Holy Fury, Megacorp or Dharma, IMO.

I'll agree that there are mechanics in EUIV I'd love to see reworked, but disagree that the solution is "apply more programmers".
This is part of the issue though, the devs seems to think they should be making an immersion pack while the fans think they need to be working on bigger problems
Excatly. I have no problems with more missions or events, but the developers have clearly decided (for lack of programers, profit, whatever reason) that its okay to make the last 6-7 batches of content 5% actual new playstyle changes, 10% new mechanics and 85% flavor buttons in the form of missions, events and 1 click bonuses.

One of the flagship features of this DLC (or however they call it) is the Siberian frontier idea, recycled from Third Rome with randomized religion and culture. And it wasnt even a impressive feature in Third Rome when it was original.

The other big one is recycled naval policies from Rule Britannia, but you click on the ship instead of a window. And it wasnt even that engaging originaly.
 

Ixal

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Sounds to me like you have too little programers and too much event designers.
The programmers are probably all working on Imperator.

Still, I would rather have less DLC with more content and reworks of the many problematic systems (Holy Fury approach) than a constant stream of nonsense DLC which add nothing of value like now.
But that would make PDX less $ so I doubt that will happen. Certainly not after the EU4 team set up the money printer (Mission Trees, Estates, etc. Things that can be made with very low effort and sold as DLC feature)
 

Ixal

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I believe as the adage goes, "You can't have nine women make a baby in a month" :) Sometimes throwing more people on a project will counter-intuitively slow it down.
Its not about speed but available effort. The problem with immersion packs is not that they take too long to develop.

And the problem is not limited to them either. Even Dharma loses big time when compared to Holy Fury or MegaCorp because the design behind it is the same. Senseless bonus buttons that do not improve the game and no rework or even fixes for the problematic things in EU4 (mercs, money flood, etc.).
 

Knut Skallagrim

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immersion pack = 9,99 thing that costed max 3 months to develop from scratch for pdx development studios
dlc = 15-20 euro thing that costed 5-6 months to develop from scratch for pdx development studios
 

Piotrzeci

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They are not small. The thematic focus is not what alone defines an immersion pack.
I am pretty certain you don't have a definition for Immersion Pack. Maybe a good step to creating a good one, would be to start by defining what makes Immersion Pack differ from DLC.
A small region focused DLC is generic enough to basically make it possible to name any expansion either DLC or Immersion Pack regardless of it's content.