So what next Holy Order/Priest or Pagans?

[grumphie]

i am personally praying for better feodalism, where the game isnt a flat expanding and pacifiying vassels but also gets a AGOT element of certain families wanting the throne, others ebing staunch supporters of the throne, marrying with vassels to bind them to you and all. i really miss that from general gameplay. there is about no use at all to marrying between vassel and kign for the king, and in large revolts support isnt a given.

@ kimberly how about feudal japan?

 

[Daelix]

I would love to see an DLC who handles the heretics of the major religions.
This event would be really interesting to see in CK2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

And stuff around it. It could be sooo interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomilism

etc

Interesting indeed. I suddenly realized that the original (in CKII terms) Raimond of Toulouse served me for decades before he passed away, causing a County in the middle of Spain to pass into the hands of the Duke of Toulouse.

I tell ya what, if that guy went Cathar and the Pope told me to Crusade on him, I'd tell the Pope to shove it. Raimond of Toulouse won me a bunch of wars. Man knew how to SCRAP.

 

[Kimberly]

@ kimberly how about feudal japan?

"The Middle Ages" is a term used in history to refer to the period after the Roman Empire but before the Renaissance. The term is not applicable to areas not affected by either the Roman Empire or Renaissance, because it's not a sensible way to divide the history of those places. Thus, by it's nature, "medieval" implies "European", and to a lesser extent non-European areas around the Mediterranean.

"Feudal Japan" has nothing to do with the Middle Ages, it's called Feudal Japan because of the political/economic/social system that was prevalent. The Feudal Japanese period begins and ends much later than the Middle Ages.

 

[TheLionHeart]

An expansion pack would be nice too. Since the game is straying further and further from it's original concepts. Sure raiding France as manly vikings is all well and good, but what does that really have to do with the crusade era and power struggle between vassals? It could improve on many of the old concepts such as a more dynamic crusade and an improved crown authority system. Flavour packs could be sold seperately for kingdoms that desire more attention such as catholic Iberia and the Scandinavian nations.

 

[tnick0225]

I wouldn't mind a pagan DLC...but I think if they did it it'd be released all at once.

I personally think that a papacy/theocracy possibly just Catholicism DLC will be next. From the Republics election process and such just seems an awful lot like they're developing the tools and a system that could potentially make the Catholic church more interesting and deep. But then again probably just me hoping for nothing....PI will probably throw a curveball and have an Eskimo invasion DLC next.

 

[justin6477]

I'm seconding the idea that the Pagans will probably get a generic one size fits all DLC, or if it gives some special mechanics to the Steppe Hordes then it'll be a pricier DLC.

However, I'd prefer a religious DLC first. Let's flesh out the core of the game first, Pagans {interesting as I find them} are secondary. They can be buffed in a Christian themed DLC to represent the Northern Crusades better though. Also, I want a timeline extension for the Pagans because it would make them more viable. Early 900s just seems like such a perfect time.

 

[jordarkelf]

Any timeline extensions going earlier require immense amounts of character research, much of which simply cannot be done. A great number of people in the 1066 scenario are already made up to fill in the gaps, by going back even just 100 years this problem gets larger and larger.
CK2 had the huge advantage of having had much of the research already done for CK1 in its three scenarios (and mod scenarios that extended the timeline or added new starting points).
There just is not any information to be found on who was the ruler of Grassland Cheremisa in 917AD and who his parents etc. were.
Not to say it can't be done, but it will be hard. It's called the Dark Age not because people had no electricity, but because our records are "dark" where a more advanced civilization was displaced or not started yet.

 

[Mattobro]

I'm getting really sick of the pagan bashing on the forums. I for one, fully support and hope for a pagan dlc, I have ever since SoI was announced. They really need a overhaul. Right now they're a free landgrab for the christians. No flavor or unique mechanics put in to help them out whatsoever.
I think Norse could get a head of faith, as there was a chief religious figure of sorts. And these arguements against an earlrier start are pretty laughable.
Guys, The folks in the mod forum did Terra Normannorum that sets the date back to 1000, and they did it well. There's also Novum Milennium. The fact there are two 1000 start date mods shows this is possible for a DLC. 1000 is also an extremely good start date because it takes place shortly after the Personal Union of Denmark and Norway. You could even set the start date back to the 990's to play as the Norwegian tyrant and stop Denmark's alliance, thus changing history in a pre-set war just like the 1066 start.

You don't have to set the start date back 100 years, the start of the 1000's has enough plausible records and history to be done, You could also include the Hungarian magyar pagan chiefs and counts under the catholic ruler, 1000 AD Hungary and Poland both had a serious possibility of going back to Paganism at that period of time.

 

[Wolf Ritter]

Personally, my heart goes to holy orders and theocracies w/religion overhaul while my nose goes to pagans due to the requests. I'll be happy either way tough. Just no more of this only playable under certain conditions because we dont think the others are fun crap, unlock everyone of the kind, maybe with the exception of the pope.

Why not the Pope? The only real problem I see is exploiting excommunicating people to get a casus belli, but then you could just give the Pope (and the Patriarch and Pentarchs) huge opinion penalties for usurping a title from someone of the same faith or straight up disallowing them to declare war on someone they have excommunicated.

 

[theKing1988]

An expansion pack would be nice too. Since the game is straying further and further from it's original concepts. Sure raiding France as manly vikings is all well and good, but what does that really have to do with the crusade era and power struggle between vassals? It could improve on many of the old concepts such as a more dynamic crusade and an improved crown authority system. Flavour packs could be sold seperately for kingdoms that desire more attention such as catholic Iberia and the Scandinavian nations.

PI have effectively scrapped expansion packs, so you will only get dlc's, other than that, i don't really agree with you that Iberia or Scandinavia needs flavour in particular, but i fully support the notion that the CA mechanic needs improvement.

I'm getting really sick of the pagan bashing on the forums. I for one, fully support and hope for a pagan dlc, I have ever since SoI was announced. They really need a overhaul. Right now they're a free landgrab for the christians. No flavor or unique mechanics put in to help them out whatsoever.
I think Norse could get a head of faith, as there was a chief religious figure of sorts. And these arguements against an earlrier start are pretty laughable.
Guys, The folks in the mod forum did Terra Normannorum that sets the date back to 1000, and they did it well. There's also Novum Milennium. The fact there are two 1000 start date mods shows this is possible for a DLC. 1000 is also an extremely good start date because it takes place shortly after the Personal Union of Denmark and Norway. You could even set the start date back to the 990's to play as the Norwegian tyrant and stop Denmark's alliance, thus changing history in a pre-set war just like the 1066 start.

You don't have to set the start date back 100 years, the start of the 1000's has enough plausible records and history to be done, You could also include the Hungarian magyar pagan chiefs and counts under the catholic ruler, 1000 AD Hungary and Poland both had a serious possibility of going back to Paganism at that period of time.

Personally i don't agree with you, i see more sense and historicity in the 1066 start, but i do agree that tweeks are needed to improve the survivability of the pagans, just as an overhaul is needed to improve the survivability of Nubia and Abyssinia

 

[justin6477]

Any timeline extensions going earlier require immense amounts of character research, much of which simply cannot be done.

I'm aware of that. One potential {although not entirely great} option would be to give all the land to the regional lord of the period. Sure you'll start with 12/5 desmesne, but you can assign that land easily enough. The names of unknown characters from that period are clearly unimportant, or else we'd know them from the dynasties they would've established. In which case, they're not any more valid for the events that ensue than the characters the game invents. So long as we've got Rurikoviches, Karlings, and the other great houses we should be covered.

Also, I cited early 900s because I think it's the earliest the game could start successfully from. Any earlier than that and things will be a bit weird. So long as Rollo is Duke of Normandy, and Wessex has formed England, we should be good.

Personally i don't agree with you, i see more sense and historicity in the 1066 start, but i do agree that tweeks are needed to improve the survivability of the pagans, just as an overhaul is needed to improve the survivability of Nubia and Abyssinia

I'd hardly call the Fatimid Smash start date historical in terms of what it produces. Unless I want Saxon England, I've completely given up on the initial start date.

 

[theKing1988]

I'm aware of that. One potential {although not entirely great} option would be to give all the land to the regional lord of the period. Sure you'll start with 12/5 desmesne, but you can assign that land easily enough. The names of unknown characters from that period are clearly unimportant, or else we'd know them from the dynasties they would've established. In which case, they're not any more valid for the events that ensue than the characters the game invents. So long as we've got Rurikoviches, Karlings, and the other great houses we should be covered.

Also, I cited early 900s because I think it's the earliest the game could start successfully from. Any earlier than that and things will be a bit weird. So long as Rollo is Duke of Normandy, and Wessex has formed England, we should be good.



I'd hardly call the Fatimid Smash start date historical in terms of what it produces. Unless I want Saxon England, I've completely given up on the initial start date.

I wasn't implying that the starting setup is ideal, but i do believe that pushing the starting date back to 1000 would make it worse. But i don't use the 1066 start that often either, most of the time i use the Alexiad starting date or i start somewhere around the completion of the first crusade

 

[Mattobro]

1066 start date should be renamed "Fatmid World Conquest: The Beginning" I usually start at The Alexiad or later personally. 1000 would probably be the Umayyad's instead of Fatimids, but oh well, the lesser of two evils IMO.

 

[jordarkelf]

There's also tech spread to take into account, and other matters.

As for the Fatimid steam train, they're easily nerfed back to historical weakness. Add a Baqt for the East African christians to protect Nubia (see micro-mods in my sig!), and mark shite islam and sunni islam as heresies of eachother. Make the Mamluks properly sunni, and remove all the ahistorical shite provinces. Presto chango you have an instable Fatimid realm and Seljuks who hate their guts.

Anyway I see no reason for a pagan DLC. What unique mechanics do they need that cannot already be done? Muslim polygamy was impossible in CK2, so the DLC/patch added it along with the unique decadence system. Orthodoxy was a unified block and basically a poor man's Catholicism, so the DLC/patch added the pentarchy system to make it unique. Now trade republics are getting their own unique gameplay style.
Pagans - what do we need? Raids can be done with CBs, sacrifice can easily be modded in, even polygamy is easily added for them. Not to harp on those who want to play as vikings, but you can easily mod all that stuff in.

However putting a stop to the random 20-year old Popes with no family is outside of mod material so definitely requires developer time. It's why I really hope we'll get a DLC for that.

 

[Mattobro]

Not to harp on those who want to play as vikings, but you can easily mod all that stuff in.

It's not all about vikings, there's you know, the little thing called Cumania that controls the huge tengri blob....that little baltic country named Lithuania that rose to power....Some other things. Open your mind, Norse gods are only one part of medieval history. We're talking about a Pagan dlc not Viking Specific Dlc.

 

[jordarkelf]

Still, what can't be done now? I played a game as the Cuman Horde just last week, and had lots of fun eating up Russia and Byz.
All you need to do is mark pagans as playable and maybe edit or add a few events for them.

 

[Mattobro]

Still, what can't be done now? I played a game as the Cuman Horde just last week, and had lots of fun eating up Russia and Byz.
All you need to do is mark pagans as playable and maybe edit or add a few events for them.

The same could be said for the Muslims, but they got a DLC. A bit of a double standard.

 

[jordarkelf]

We had decadence and polygamy before the DLC was being developed? Huh.
DLCs pay for new stuff going in patches. We wouldn't have gotten new major features like decadence, pentarchy, etc. if Pdox wouldn't have developed the DLC and people bought it.

 

[Mattobro]

If everyone had the same view you have on a dlc, the Muslims could of just been set to playable and had a few events for them instead of a dlc.
After all, they didn't need polygamy or decadence when they worked just fine as it was. That's the sort of view people on taking on pagan dlc.

Sure you can mod them in, but you can't add unique features specific to them, to illustrate the way pagan society was different to muslims and catholics, unless Paradox adds new hard coded features in a dlc.
I'm sure Pagans would be alot more fleshed out via mods like you're saying if there actually was a way to mod the way their government worked, without a dlc.

 

[jordarkelf]

Edit: n/m, won't argue with people only out to provoke.

/done with this thread.