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Chaostrian

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Ok, I have to say I would find it extremely funny if the ratings at Imperator now went positive, just because everyone wrote that the game is better than vic 3 xDD

in the end you got a 70% positive rating and the other 30% are these typical "development stopped/game dead" reviews xD
1668177286506.png



just because I said so, here's a funny picture xD

The game has gone from balanced to mostly positive in recent reviews xD

cool not long anymore and this game has 16k reviews :3
 
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Ergo - you are wrong.
I mean, they removed "mana", but people still didn't stick around to play the game after returning to test the "mana" removal. The game is already long dead despite thee "mana" removal, severely beaten by "mana" infested games like ck2 and eu4 over two years after ck3 released. Ck2 which had development (outside of minor hotfixes to try to make buying dlcs more attractive) end before Imperator still has like 8 times more players. Even victoria 2 (which also has "mana") are still getting more than twice the amount of players that Imperator does, but I'm sure that's all down to Imperator releasing with "mana" initially...
 
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You dont understand "what is mana"...

Money od diplomatic actions or merchants or missionaries or piety etc. arent mana. This dont lead to magical transformation whole empire in few days in game. Durin discussions about mana system were voices that also money are mana. In EU1/2/3 you had nation with stability -3. You had to spend money and waiting few yeras to stabilizating. In EU4 or I:R you hace to only spend mana points. In one day from -3 to +3. In CK1/2 somebody dont like you? You have to make 10+ things and maybe he will be like you. In I:R you paid mana and haters are transformed to BFF. In one day. Etc. Etc.

Level of studipy in elder mana system for Imperator was too big, so players prefered other games, where systems work more rational or have some other limits for avoid exploits. Mana system in elder Imperator was open way to exploits.

In next phase was too late. Players have bad emotions and dont want return and tries.
 
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I honestly have to say that the old I:R Mana system made a lot more difference to me than today's because at least back then you cried around when your ruler was an absolute looser and now you're not interested in anything else except Martial

The stats of the individual kings don't make any sense anymore because this bit of bonuses you get through finesse, charisma and zeal are hardly worth anything apart from the fact that the kings are only strong at the beginning of the game and in the As the game progresses they get worse and worse

I don't think the current system with political influence is bad, but it's nothing different than the one before, only instead of 4 you have 1 mana point
Martial is mostimportant in the early game. Overall, I would dsay that finesse and zeal are better once you don't need capital levies. Charisma is sadly next to useless.
 
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You dont understand "what is mana"...
I have probably seen at least a dozen different definitions of "mana" from mana haters. All of them are tailor made to fit the exact mechanic they dislike, and none of them have any resemblance with mana in most rpgs I have played.

Money od diplomatic actions or merchants or missionaries or piety etc. arent mana. This dont lead to magical transformation whole empire in few days in game.
Neither does "mana" in eu4 or how it was implemented in Imperator at release. Feel free to explain why piety in ck2, diplomatic points and leadership points in Vic 2 aren't "mana.

Durin discussions about mana system were voices that also money are mana.
By the definition you and many others appears to use for "mana", that is no less reasonable than for what you are using it for.

In CK1/2 somebody dont like you? You have to make 10+ things and maybe he will be like you
I mean, you could just send them a fat gift of money. Or you can just spam the button invite to court to spend piety and replace them. It's a much more fun and non magical solution, right?

In one day from -3 to +3. In CK1/2 somebody dont like you? You have to make 10+ things and maybe he will be like you. In I:R you paid mana and haters are transformed to BFF. In one day. Etc. Etc
You do realize that this mechanic is perfectly possible to replace without removing "mana"? As was most of the mechanical reworks paradox did alongside the "mana" removal.

In next phase was too late. Players have bad emotions and dont want return and tries.
Thousands of players gave the new system a try. Most of us still found the game to be just as dull as it was before they reworked the mechanic.

Level of studipy in elder mana system for Imperator was too big, so players prefered other games, where systems work more rational or have some other limits for avoid exploits. Mana system in elder Imperator was open way to exploits.
Oh, I forgot how much people hate exploits in Paradox games. They hate them so much that they can't stand playing a game like eu4.

So, why did every Imperator patch only see a very short lived increase in player numbers? It can't be the "mana" system that made people leave again? Why does it have less than half as many players as Victoria 2 which hasn't recieved any updates for almost 6 years? That patch even spent a year in the beta branch before becoming official with no further changes, so in reality it is almost 7 years.
 
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The stats of the individual kings don't make any sense anymore because this bit of bonuses you get through finesse, charisma and zeal are hardly worth anything apart from the fact that the kings are only strong at the beginning of the game and in the As the game progresses they get worse and worse
In case of Finesse the impact depends a bit on empire size, though - in a small realm only having a capital region the ruler has inevitably the governor position, so the finesse stat will determine how effective governor policies are executed there. Once you have left the craddle of course this dinishes to some extend (even if the capital region still tends to be high-pop because of slaves being directed to a good amount to it)
 

moscal

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I have probably seen at least a dozen different definitions of "mana" from mana haters. All of them are tailor made to fit the exact mechanic they dislike, and none of them have any resemblance with mana in most rpgs I have played.
And I saw trillion anti-definitions "why nothing is mana system" but still - we can in magical style change wastelands on Sahara Desert to lands on level like a XIX-century London or Paris or Berlin in ONE DAY.
And for big part of users Pplaza - this isnt problems. Only one this is problem - people who say that something, in their favorite Pdx games, is wrong.

Neither does "mana" in eu4 or how it was implemented in Imperator at release. Feel free to explain why piety in ck2, diplomatic points and leadership points in Vic 2 aren't "mana.
Because by diplomatic points or leadership points you cannot transfer wastelands on Sahara Desert to lands on level like a XIX-century London or Paris or Berlin in ONE DAY. Or something similar as magical function - big changes in ONE DAY.

I mean, you could just send them a fat gift of money. Or you can just spam the button invite to court to spend piety and replace them. It's a much more fun and non magical solution, right?
You cant.
First. A monetary gift has a maximum limit about relationship change. If you have big risk of excomunite - gifts for Pope will not be full functional anti-excomunite shield.
Second. For some persons this can work very good. For some cant work very good.
By the definition you and many others appears to use for "mana", that is no less reasonable than for what you are using it for.
Nope.
Please. Start game in EU1 or EU2. Compare stability mechanism or coring mechanism to EU4. You should rapid fell "why money isnt mana".
Thousands of players gave the new system a try. Most of us still found the game to be just as dull as it was before they reworked the mechanic.
And other thousands of players tries and were happy.
Why your thousands are better than my?
Oh, I forgot how much people hate exploits in Paradox games. They hate them so much that they can't stand playing a game like eu4.
n-troll2.jpg


So, why did every Imperator patch only see a very short lived increase in player numbers? It can't be the "mana" system that made people leave again? Why does it have less than half as many players as Victoria 2 which hasn't recieved any updates for almost 6 years? That patch even spent a year in the beta branch before becoming official with no further changes, so in reality it is almost 7 years.
Because they had very negative emotions in start....
C'mon! This mechanism was described by many psychologists. Do you know concept "first impression"? If you meet a new person and have negative feelings to start with, it takes a lot of work to change your feelings. How many work? Different for each person. For games this is similar.
 
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And other thousands of players tries and were happy.
Why your thousands are better than my?
Not happy enough to keep playing the game? It has nothing to do with being better. It's simply math. Your thousands aren't enough to support development.

Because they had very negative emotions in start....
C'mon! This mechanism was described by many psychologists. Do you know concept "first impression"?
Are you really suggesting people hated the "mana" system so much that even after the "mana" removal, those who returned were so blinded by rage about it being there at release that they decided to not keep playing the game they now enjoyed, after having given it a second try? I'm sorry, but for the vast majority of those people the game simply didn't magically get fixed by removing "mana". That's why your "thousands" of people enjoying Imperator weren't enough to financially support further development of the game.
 
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Are you really suggesting people hated the "mana" system so much that even after the "mana" removal, those who returned were so blinded by rage about it being there at release that they decided to not keep playing the game they now enjoyed, after having given it a second try? I'm sorry, but for the vast majority of those people the game simply didn't magically get fixed by removing "mana". That's why your "thousands" of people enjoying Imperator weren't enough to financially support further development of the game.
Do you really ignore science, that negative emotions during first impression are extremal important?
We can compare some games, where players had negative emotions during first impression. Eg. Warcraft 3 Reforged and Fallout 76.
W3 Reforged have few patches, but still Reforged have less options than before modernization, still many functions dont work good, still many promises are barren, too many bugs etc. But still - game have ~5000 games on dey in european servers. Why? Still players have good emotions from period "before Reforged" and core gameplay is still like fron normal Warcraft 3.
Compare Reforged to Fallout 76. By function of time game have many upgrades, modernization, patches, DLC etc. Even after period very low num of players - other players will return and see "oh, this game isnt dead and isnt extremal bad like after release". And we can see that there are periods, that more or less players play. up and down. Never return to level like in first period after release. https://steamcharts.com/app/1151340#All
Do if I:R was developed and modernize like F76, would the game be more alive? Maybe. Negative first impression was be covered by noticing that the game is expanded and next points have more good things. Etc. etc.

You can believe me or not. You have right to believe that "science is wrong and empirical examples of other games are worthless".
But don't troll....
 
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Do you really ignore science, that negative emotions during first impression are extremal important?
Science does not work the way you are trying to suggest.

W3 Reforged have few patches, but still Reforged have less options than before modernization, still many functions dont work good, still many promises are barren, too many bugs etc. But still - game have ~5000 games on dey in european servers. Why? Still players have good emotions from period "before Reforged" and core gameplay is still like fron normal Warcraft 3.
5000 is nothing when it comes to Blizzard chills, but I suppose the first impressions of W3 reforged didn't matter because "reasons". So why is it relevant?

Compare Reforged to Fallout 76. By function of time game have many upgrades, modernization, patches, DLC etc. Even after period very low num of players - other players will return and see "oh, this game isnt dead and isnt extremal bad like after release".
So first impressions no longer stops people from playing it? You seem to be contradicting yourself here....

And we can see that there are periods, that more or less players play. up and down. Never return to level like in first period after release
The problem with Imperator is that the number never really goes up outside of the patches. People just leave again. That indicates that the patches didn't make the game fun enough. I.e. "mana" wasn't the one reason that made people quit the game.

Do if I:R was developed and modernize like F76, would the game be more alive? Maybe. Negative first impression was be covered by noticing that the game is expanded and next points have more good things. Etc. etc.
So fallout 76 had similar release numbers on steam to Imperator (lower according to steamdb), but now has about 18 times more players? Is that supposed to be an argument in favour of the "mana" fix not attracting players due to first impressions?

You can believe me or not. You have right to believe that "science is wrong and empirical examples of other games are worthless".
I believe the numbers. Not your selective application of "science". Your examples even contradicts the argument you are trying to make.
 
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Chaostrian

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The problem is actually quite simple

marketing

Many players who bought Imperator on the release day and then returned it don't even know that Imperator has already received a 2.0 update, they don't even know that Imperator's development has stopped

outside of the forum nobody heard anything about the Marius update, not even in the launcher of the other games something was displayed about it, which I find cheeky because I don't want any shitty advertising from other games in my Imperator launcher

it doesn't make any sense either you play a game in ancient times and then you get adverts for a game in the 2nd world war

the only thing pdx did was put up a few tutorial videos on youtube, videos that you can easily ignore because they aren't really any more helpful than the videos on display on the steamshop site

I mean on steam there are currently around 500 average players plus those who don't play it on steam and now how many are active here in the forum?

i mean the update has been out for 1 year and 9 months now and i still explain to my friends how the game works or what the update brought with it because they were simply not active in this forum

they just let the game die before the update was really out

don't expect the game to continue in the near future, by the middle of next year we're probably still where we are now

and you don't have to hope for an Imperator II either, simply because the first part was so bad, the second part is already being ignored by most, probably even by those who have waited too long until PDX has announced new information about Imperator

but who knows, maybe i'm wrong and we'll soon get a message that will make us all happy
 
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@Brynjar can you read or do you have memory of a goldfish? Or maybe you are troll?

What I wrote

If you meet a new person and have negative feelings to start with, it takes a lot of work to change your feelings.

Again

it takes a lot of work to change your feelings.

And again

lot of work to change

And again

lot of work to change

And again

lot of work to change

And what you next do?

So first impressions no longer stops people from playing it? You seem to be contradicting yourself here....

NO!
How many times I should wrote lot of work to change for situation, where you will understand that lot of work to change mean lot of work to change? This isn't like in EU4, that you paid 100 ADM-mana and anybody are happy adn effects are rapid. If your skill of reading is extremal poor and dont know what mean part lot of work to change I will not replace for you school and basic education. Or you troll.

How much work PDX made to change feelings of players? Small... But for trolls this isnt important...

Do you ignore big part of my words, because you want be fun? Nope, world dont work in this style. And fact, that you ignore psychology as science, because your skill of reading number is poor, is nothing. Statistics as a science is many years of study. Statisticians are not random people who can only get the conclusion in style "there is a lot here, and there is little here". You might know this if you were a man of science... Numbers matter in the environment, reading of factors and after analysis other similar elements. Not bare numbers, like you want do.

Now I end discussion with you, because
n-troll2.jpg
 
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How much work PDX made to change feelings of players?
Clearly not enough. So "mana" clearly was not the big game breaking issue you are trying to make it. After all, that is the argument you started making:

Primary mistake of I:R was extremal stupid mana system. This made, that many players rapid abandon Imperator... 4ever...

But this was remaked. Too late... So hopes about return are weak. But still are!
Here you were saying that Paradox did do enough, but that it was to late.
 
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View attachment 908158


just because I said so, here's a funny picture xD

The game has gone from balanced to mostly positive in recent reviews xD

cool not long anymore and this game has 16k reviews :3

And if you check now Imperator has reached the very positive recent reviews!!!

Like a true artist it was not recognised in its own time... only post mortem!!!
 
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Chaostrian

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You can now add Caesar on the 21st to Civilization 6, I hope PDX sees this and thinks "Wait, we can do better: Here you have 2.1 Caesar update with Roman Empire Content Pack"

just a thought...
 
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You can now add Caesar on the 21st to Civilization 6, I hope PDX sees this and thinks "Wait, we can do better: Here you have 2.1 Caesar update with Roman Empire Content Pack"

just a thought...
Yes, but (beside it requires connecting your Steam account to a 2K one) so far it is unclear (and IMHO rather unlikely, as nothing was stated in that regard), if that release/addition is accompanied by a patch. And as one who has played Civ6 a lot...it dearly needs further patches, even more than IR. IR might lack content, but Civ6 lacks polish and its AI is terrible. Yes, you can have fun with it, but it is more a kind of puzzling fun and you have ignore the AI and many flaws. Which is possible for a time, as it has just the magic Civ formula.
But even that only goes so far and as a person how prefers a game which challenges me (and that preferably w/o just throwing out AI boni), I have to say that Civ6 has lost the struggle to styay on my playing radar quite a time ago. It's first defeat was the battle vs. Humankind (which showed how tactical battles on a civ style map can work out, if the AI is not completely incompetent) and finally got crushed completely by Old World, which is basically superior in any way if it comes to balance, game mechanics or AI (the only limitation you have to accept is that it has "less" scope in terms of covered eras and available civs, but what you get makes up for that, IMO)
 

Chaostrian

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Yes, but (beside it requires connecting your Steam account to a 2K one) so far it is unclear (and IMHO rather unlikely, as nothing was stated in that regard), if that release/addition is accompanied by a patch. And as one who has played Civ6 a lot...it dearly needs further patches, even more than IR. IR might lack content, but Civ6 lacks polish and its AI is terrible. Yes, you can have fun with it, but it is more a kind of puzzling fun and you have ignore the AI and many flaws. Which is possible for a time, as it has just the magic Civ formula.
But even that only goes so far and as a person how prefers a game which challenges me (and that preferably w/o just throwing out AI boni), I have to say that Civ6 has lost the struggle to styay on my playing radar quite a time ago. It's first defeat was the battle vs. Humankind (which showed how tactical battles on a civ style map can work out, if the AI is not completely incompetent) and finally got crushed completely by Old World, which is basically superior in any way if it comes to balance, game mechanics or AI (the only limitation you have to accept is that it has "less" scope in terms of covered eras and available civs, but what you get makes up for that, IMO)
Yea but you can disconnect your acc after that again so who cares about that,

I never played Humandkind so far i was always the Civ player but i have Old world on my wishlist need to try it, so i cant say which of this game is better than civ i played civ alot and it still makes fun even if i played it a long time ago but who cares about that either i just want to crush everything as caesar and get my Gold from it xDD

and yes maybe civ needs some fixes but this game is still developed so that means that there is a potential better chance to get those fixes then in Imperator.

Imperator that has everything that it needs to get a great game but no developer sees it...
 

Herennius

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Yea but you can disconnect your acc after that again so who cares about that,

I never played Humandkind so far i was always the Civ player but i have Old world on my wishlist need to try it, so i cant say which of this game is better than civ i played civ alot and it still makes fun even if i played it a long time ago but who cares about that either i just want to crush everything as caesar and get my Gold from it xDD

and yes maybe civ needs some fixes but this game is still developed so that means that there is a potential better chance to get those fixes then in Imperator.

Imperator that has everything that it needs to get a great game but no developer sees it...
Yeah, I still hope that they use Leader Pass for some serious patching. Then I will probably return at least to see if the overall feeling has changed. And you are right, it is sad that IR was completely shelved and there is no realistic chance that it will ever evolve into what it could be (how good its foundation is shows e.g. the Imperiatrix Victoria mod in development)