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Doimper

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There seems to be a lot of frustration in the community over the fact that Paradox has said next to nothing about Slavic pagans. Zoroastrians get their dev diary and neat features, the Baltic pagans are being given defensive bonuses, and even the Finns have a unique feast event (and probably a bit more than that). But there have been tons of threads and questions in dev diaries about Slavs - and, as far as I can see, they've been completely ignored. This looks like a wonderful expansion and I couldn't be more excited for it - but seriously, Paradox, what's up?
 

illidan1372

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well ofc the Zoroastrians get more love than the slavs! i mean its one of the oldest religions on earth(which still exist). whereas we don`t even know anythings about the slavs back when the game starts!
 

Olaus Petrus

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There seems to be a lot of frustration in the community over the fact that Paradox has said next to nothing about Slavic pagans. Zoroastrians get their dev diary and neat features, the Baltic pagans are being given defensive bonuses, and even the Finns have a unique feast event (and probably a bit more than that). But there have been tons of threads and questions in dev diaries about Slavs - and, as far as I can see, they've been completely ignored. This looks like a wonderful expansion and I couldn't be more excited for it - but seriously, Paradox, what's up?

They have said as much about Slavic Pagans as they have said about any other European Pagans (Norse excluded), which is considerably more than what they have said about African Pagans. Chances that I get my African Pagan dev. diary are 0% and your chances of getting Slavic dev. diary aren't much higher, because Doomdark already said that the last dev. diary is about technology.

Paradox has decided that they advertise the expansion with Norse and Zoroastrians. There are several different Pagan religions and detailed introduction of every one of them would take a lot of time. I have plenty of similar questions also about African, Aztec, Tengri, Finnish and Baltic Pagans, but I'll just have to wait and see.
 
Last edited:

CzokletMuss

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well ofc the Zoroastrians get more love than the slavs! i mean its one of the oldest religions on earth(which still exist). whereas we don`t even know anythings about the slavs back when the game starts!
We know enough to create for example event like this:
EVENT: Kupala Night

TRIGGER:
1) Character is a ruler
2) Character is Slav
3) Month is July or June

EVENT TEXT: As every year, it's the time to celebrate Kupala Night, an ancient festival of fertility. Ceremonies sancted by tradition are many. Lovers will jump over the flames of bonfires to test their dedication to themselves. Young girls float wreaths of flowers lit with candles on the rivers and pray to the Gods to gain forsight into their relationship fortunes. Unmarried women don't spend this night alone - they will go deep into the forest in search of the legendary fern flower which gives immortality and blossom only during this night. And of course there is a feast. How are you going to spend Kupala Night?

OPTION 1: Feast without me? No way!
(-5 gold)
(+5 prestige)
(1% chance of getting Drunkard)

OPTION 2: I think I will escort the ladies to the forest, just in case.
(+5 prestige)
(15% chance of falling in love in one of courtiers)

OPTION 3: Me and my <SPOUSE> will test our love in the fire!
(+20 prestige)
(+10 spouse opinion)
(5% chance of getting Wounded)

(IF SHY) OPTION 4: I will just stay at home...
(-10 prestige)

More info on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupala_Night

I think that Paradox instead of focusing only on pagans decided to focus only on those most recognizable and easiest to sell (like Norse) and instead improve other things like technology or rebels. Which is cool but it leaves half of the map kinda bland and boring. This DLC is made by Scandinavians who love history so there is no surprise in Norse dominating everything else.

But such neglectance is annyoing - we don't even know what the Slavis holy sites are. The are other pagans that are ignored, like those from African, but ignorance about Romuva and Slav is especially irritating since for instance region HRE-Poland-Lithuania-Russia is slighlty more important for Europe history than West Africa. I think we should just accept this that Paradox doesn't care, the dev diaries are over (only tech lef) and the DLC is on the market in 2 weeks.

At least we can count on some decent Slav overhaul mod taking into consideration how many people know about this issue now.

All in all: http://chevismo.com/h/110887 ;)
 
Last edited:

Sopot

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I think we should just accept this that Paradox doesn't care
That's a little over emotional. I highly doubt that they don't care, I'm sure they love each forum member equally.

My guess is that no one is really too interested in Slavs all that much, other than those whose national pride has been hurt by the lack of information, so they felt that thier time, money and effort into marketing, which is what dev diaries basically are, should be focused on things most people will be interested in, which is new mechanics, vikings and Zorastrians.

You should instead say that the average CK2 player doesn't care about feast events and ritual hair cuts for Slavs, trivial fluff events and such.
 

duhsveti

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That's a little over emotional. I highly doubt that they don't care, I'm sure they love each forum member equally.

My guess is that no one is really too interested in Slavs all that much, other than those whose national pride has been hurt by the lack of information, so they felt that thier time, money and effort into marketing, which is what dev diaries basically are, should be focused on things most people will be interested in, which is new mechanics, vikings and Zorastrians.

You should instead say that the average CK2 player doesn't care about feast events and ritual hair cuts for Slavs, trivial fluff events and such.

Well this. I'm a Slav, but i ain't really bothered by the seeming lack of depth for the Slavs. I mean they are revamping all of the pagans, and making zoroastrians playabe so thats good enough. Mods can take care of the rest if there is enough interest.
 

Knives

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Paradox teams have priorities, sorry that makes everyone but the norse and tengriists take a back seat. It should be a consolation that modders will use the mechanics established to create more content for other pagans. Lets be happy with the improvements they are making. I recall when the game came out, the intial demands for pagans and to remove the hardcoding. A lot of people at that period said making the pagans playable would be just too much effort. What it seems like now is, no its not too much effort but theres only so much effort they're willing to invest in each individual pagan faith. I think that is rather fair. It is already looking more extensive then the last few expansions. Its the first time change backwards. Slavic pagans will be playable, have some events, some considerable starting land and that is more then most cultures get within the game. Maybe not more then most faiths.. but its something. Its a folk religion to so I am skeptical as to whether it played as important a role in their lives as say christianity or islam. Thats not to handwaive the importance of making it immersive and fleshed out.. but it means that there might be some more grounds not to give them as much attention (that applies to most pagans though). If I can speculate on why the norse and tengriists get are recieving as much attention as they are, it is not merely because they have stronger fan followings (though that might be why we heard so much about zoroastrians in the previous dev diary) but that norse were so active within this time period, and that tengrism was important in this period and that later periods saw large hordes from tengriists. Slavic paganism meanwhile sort of confined itself to an area and spent more time fighting each other or defending against other faiths, then actually invading other faiths.
 
Last edited:

CzokletMuss

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You should instead say that the average CK2 player doesn't care about feast events and ritual hair cuts for Slavs, trivial fluff events and such.
Well of course, this is very local and not commonly know. I don't demand that everyone should be interested in this, just like for example I have no idea about the history of Britain c.400-1066. It's just pity that in The Old Gods most of the pagans are more or like the same. And I'm glad that the Norse and Zoroastrians gets attention, it will be fun to play as them. I will of course be happy to help anyone who wants to make a mod for eastern pagans. And its not the matter of national pride - what's the value of pride based on some videogame anyway? I never cared much about Slavic gods too, I'm not a neopagan or something, it will be just cool to play them, that's it. And I think that the average player cares about having fun from playing, in which some flavour always helps.
 
Last edited:

justin6477

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Well of course, this is very local and not commonly know. I don't demand that everyone should be interested in this, just like for example I have no idea about the history of Britain c.400-1066. It's just pity that in The Old Gods most of the pagans are more or like the same. And I'm glad that the Norse and Zoroastrians gets attention, it will be fun to play as them. I will of course be happy to help anyone who wants to make a mod for eastern pagans. And its not the matter of national pride - what's the value of pride based on some videogame anyway? I never cared much about Slavic gods too, I'm not a neopagan or something, it will be just cool to play them, that's it. And I think that the average player cares about having fun from playing, in which some flavour always helps.

I'm actually pretty interested in this stuff. My knowledge of Western European history has always been pretty decent, but when I loaded up EU3 for the first time I was like "woah, there's a crusader state where Poland is? That's awesome". It was quickly followed by "Lithuania is a thing?" For the longest time, I was convinced Lithuania was a made up country like Latveria (where Doctor Doom is from). Pretty sure there was an animated show on when I was younger about school-age children, and one of them was this weird nerdy girl who'd go on about how she was from Lithuania, and collected ornate Lithuanian spoons. For some reason, that was enough to convince me that Lithuania was obviously a made-up place. It was also odd enough for me to remember this show years later despite only watching two or three episodes....

Point being that Eastern Europe is something I feel compelled to learn more about; and so far, Paradox games have been a pretty decent place to start.
 

Kyoumen

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That's a little over emotional. I highly doubt that they don't care, I'm sure they love each forum member equally.

My guess is that no one is really too interested in Slavs all that much, other than those whose national pride has been hurt by the lack of information, so they felt that thier time, money and effort into marketing, which is what dev diaries basically are, should be focused on things most people will be interested in, which is new mechanics, vikings and Zorastrians.

I care a lot more about Slavs than I do about the Norse, and I'm a Canadian of Irish/Scots background heritage. So mind your generalising, please.
 

CzokletMuss

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Each country with long history is interesting, though suddenly discovering the other half of the Europe must have been a pleasant surprise. I remember I was fascinated by Ireland when I was there, especially when I first heard of the importance of Irish monks in preserving the classic legacy. And of course there is Byzantium, almost completely ignored in every history classbook (2 pages at most).
Pure curiosity - where are you from?
 

Talq

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You will know what the Slavic flavour decisions are 5 minutes after buying the DLC. You can file search the events or even wait for a surprise. If you are too upset you can not buy the DLC and wait for somebody to tell you.

There are people who want to know the succession law for Wessex is or how the Karlings act, or how the Byzzies act, or if the inevitable muslim disintegration or other elements of 1066 game balance has changed. They get to wait too.

The spammy, multiple thread Slavic pity party is getting tiresome. The devs are not going to answer all questions put to them. Deal with it.
 

Kyoumen

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Yeah, what gets covered is just shockingly incomplete in Western schooling even for people with some interest in history. I also didn't know Lithuania was A Thing before I loaded up EU2 the first time, and I was only vaguely aware that the Byzantine Empire was a thing that existed somewhere at some point. That was a long time and a lot of learning ago. :)
 

Kyoumen

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The spammy, multiple thread Slavic pity party is getting tiresome. The devs are not going to answer all questions put to them. Deal with it.

Yeah, because there's no justification at all to be concerned or annoyed that "all pagans get unique mechanics and decisions!" became "Norse get this, this, this, this unique mechanic, this unique reformation, oh, uh, and your guys get a festival or something".
 

CzokletMuss

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The spammy, multiple thread Slavic pity party is getting tiresome. The devs are not going to answer all questions put to them. Deal with it.
I'm leaving this to moderators to judge; how come you be tired by this if you can not read them?
 

Sopot

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I care a lot more about Slavs than I do about the Norse, and I'm a Canadian of Irish/Scots background heritage.
Everyone has to care about something.

So mind your generalising, please.
Well, it's hardly generalising. Fact is, if Slavs were such a huge deal, then this would be marketed as Slav dlc, not Norse or anything else. All the art work is Norse, all the diaries have stuff about Norse, there has to be a reason for this other than it's a Swedish company. I'll give you a clue as to the reason, people know what Vikings are, they are interested in Vikings. You are in the minority if you are all about Slavic stuff.

But I'm glad you'll be buying the dlc for more than just viking stuff because I'm sure paradox has put a lot of effort into other areas of the dlc, even if those areas haven't been marketed as much as the things that the majority of people want to see.
 

Kyoumen

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Everyone has to care about something.

Well, it's hardly generalising. Fact is, if Slavs were such a huge deal, then this would be marketed as Slav dlc, not Norse or anything else. All the art work is Norse, all the diaries have stuff about Norse, there has to be a reason for this other than it's a Swedish company. I'll give you a clue as to the reason, people know what Vikings are, they are interested in Vikings. You are in the minority if you are all about Slavic stuff.

Of course. But the fact is, you are wrong to think that "nobody" cares about Slavs unless they have a nationalist interest in doing so. So you were generalising to say "no one is really too interested in Slavs all that much, other than those whose national pride has been hurt by the lack of information". That is not true. I am also hardly the only non-Slav to show some interest on the topic (and many other people have mentioned Romuva and West African paganism who have no nationalist interest, as well).

But I'm glad you'll be buying the dlc for more than just viking stuff because I'm sure paradox has put a lot of effort into other areas of the dlc, even if those areas haven't been marketed as much as the things that the majority of people want to see.

I don't think they did at all. If they'd put a lot of effort in differentiating the other pagan faiths, they would have said so, and they would happily respond to queries about Slavic pagans with "They have a ton of cool unique features we just haven't had time to talk about!". I think the fact we've been told Suomenko, Romuva and Slavic pagans have one unique festival each, and been told nothing at all about West African paganism, is in fact a pretty accurate representation of how much work has been put into them. Paradox wouldn't answer questions about the differences between Sunnis and Shiites for the Sword of Islam DLC either, and there turned out to be a really good reason they didn't (they are functionally identical). They didn't talk about how anything other than Italian merchant republics worked for the Republic DLC, because the Republic DLC is only designed to replicate Italian merchant republics, is bland for other types of European republics, and flat-out doesn't work right for non-Christian republics. They didn't talk about content other than the Hordes, Chinese factions and Japanese system for Divine Wind, because aside from a simple unification there was nothing new in Divine Wind for India or Southeast Asia. And so on and so forth.

Don't get me wrong. I understand that vox populi, marketing reasons and personal interest made them make the DLC 90% Norse content (including pushing back the start date for the primary reason of making the Norse religion that is functionally a dead letter in 1066 important again), and don't blame them for doing so, exactly. But pretending they showered effort they're just not telling us about on things they've conspicuously not mentioned (which is pretty much everything other than Norse and a sprinkling of Zoroastrian and Tengrii features) flies in the face of pretty much every other time this has happened. A lot of people are cool with this because that's all they care about too, and there's nothing wrong with that. A lot of people were cool about there never being a pagan DLC because all they care about and want to play are Christian feudal lords, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

But the chances there's going to be any other DLC to try and accurately represent Slavic pagans, or anything at all related to that large, populous and historically important area of Europe are pretty fricking slim, so why wouldn't people who do care about it be concerned and vocalise their disappointment that it's being shoved in the "all those other guys" dustbin yet again? Zoroastrian fans got extra content and attention because they wouldn't shut up about Zoroastrians. Why should people who want more content for Slavs (or Baltic pagans, or whatever) shut up about their area of interest? How else is Paradox supposed to know that people, contrary to what you said, actually care?
 

justin6477

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Each country with long history is interesting, though suddenly discovering the other half of the Europe must have been a pleasant surprise. I remember I was fascinated by Ireland when I was there, especially when I first heard of the importance of Irish monks in preserving the classic legacy. And of course there is Byzantium, almost completely ignored in every history classbook (2 pages at most).
Pure curiosity - where are you from?

Originally from Canada, but I have lived in the US as well. We (at least my school/state) covered a pretty decent amount of Byzantine material, but everything right of Germany somehow becomes "Russia". Although, I guess that's to be expected when the natural favoritism towards Western Europe (ie. the Colonial Powers) meets the legacy of the Cold War. The American educational system is also very taken with antiquity; when I was in Greece, the tour guide asked why the North Americans basically knew everything they were going to say before they said it.
 
Last edited:

LordNeidhart

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Particularly I'm worried (like others) that the bulk of the new features will be geared towards Norse and other pagans in the general area, and seeing as even the zoroastrians (which are the only other "big" religious group to be adressed in this dlc) only got half a Dev Diary dedicated to them, and the features seem interesting but still fairly limited (there's not even the option to reform the religion in any way apparently, or any other interesting mechanics), I worry that the norse will indeed have most of the spotlight for themselves and we that are more interested in other cultures will have to wait and hope that additional features are introduced in future patches.

tl;dr The DLC is definitely norse, but I don't think that's too much reason for concern. We have the dev diaries that explain in detail the new changes, so it's not like they're tricking us into thinking it's a complete overhaul of everyone.