So, Trade, then... er.. um.. help ?

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Mabs

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Played the demo, including tutorial and i still cant wrap my head around how trade works
with the "downstream" and nodes, nothing seems to change when i was experimenting with merchants


can anyone please explain this to me using short words, hand gestures, and possibly some crayon drawings ? :(
 

unperson

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Played the demo, including tutorial and i still cant wrap my head around how trade works
with the "downstream" and nodes, nothing seems to change when i was experimenting with merchants


can anyone please explain this to me using short words, hand gestures, and possibly some crayon drawings ? :(
Heres a table that covers all the possibilities: (not made by me)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At73KTzHGGdXdE9VRDYxbEVXV1NlOTdlRTI4QjU2dnc#gid=0

Besides that I reccomend to check out the trading dev diary.
 

Garothian

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Heres a table that covers all the possibilities: (not made by me)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At73KTzHGGdXdE9VRDYxbEVXV1NlOTdlRTI4QjU2dnc#gid=0

Besides that I reccomend to check out the trading dev diary.

Thank you for that link; whoever made that graph is a godsend. I've tried for a solid week to wrap my brain around the new trade system, after being so accustomed to the hands-off trade of EUIII. A simple sentence like, "Sending merchants upstream of your capital's trade c̶e̶n̶t̶e̶r̶ node generates money, while sending merchants downstream generates trade power." would have helped a whole lot.
 
Last edited:

Mabs

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Heres a table that covers all the possibilities: (not made by me)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At73KTzHGGdXdE9VRDYxbEVXV1NlOTdlRTI4QjU2dnc#gid=0

Besides that I reccomend to check out the trading dev diary.

outstanding, cheers for the link ! :D

Thank you for that link; whoever made that graph is a godsend. I've tried for a solid week to wrap my brain around the new trade system, after being so accustomed to the hands-off trade of EUIII. A simple sentence like, "Sending merchants upstream of your capital's trade c̶e̶n̶t̶e̶r̶ node generates money, while sending merchants downstream generates trade power." would have helped a whole lot.

exactly ;)
 

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Heres a table that covers all the possibilities: (not made by me)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At73KTzHGGdXdE9VRDYxbEVXV1NlOTdlRTI4QjU2dnc#gid=0

Besides that I reccomend to check out the trading dev diary.

There is a sorta error in that document. It states that if you have provinces in a node, but no merchant, then the default behavior is to pull value toward your home node. This is not strictly true because the direction it gets pulled isn't necessarily toward home.

You can see an example of this as the Ottomans in the demo in the Crimea node. The Ottoman trade power is contributing to a significant amount of money being steered out of that node, but because they don't have a merchant there, they do not get to influence the direction it goes, and it actually goes away from home.

In this scenario, the merchant presence is important more for the ability to dictate the direction of the trade much more than the measly +2 trade power that gets provided.
 

JCFast

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A quick question, perhaps covered here already, but couldn't find it:

Are trade nodes static? I remember reading from that trade developer diary that trade routes are static, but it didn't mention nodes being static as well? Also if I recall correctly, I remember the tutorial saying that only Antwerpen and Venice static ending points for trade?
 

pedroantonio

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There is a sorta error in that document. It states that if you have provinces in a node, but no merchant, then the default behavior is to pull value toward your home node. This is not strictly true because the direction it gets pulled isn't necessarily toward home.

You can see an example of this as the Ottomans in the demo in the Crimea node. The Ottoman trade power is contributing to a significant amount of money being steered out of that node, but because they don't have a merchant there, they do not get to influence the direction it goes, and it actually goes away from home.

In this scenario, the merchant presence is important more for the ability to dictate the direction of the trade much more than the measly +2 trade power that gets provided.

Hi, it's me who made the table. And you're right in what you describe, if there's 2 outputs out of a non home trade node, with a province you collaborate to "pull trade out" of the node, but you need a merchant to "steer trade" to the output you want, this is coherent with the columns in the trade nodes ledger page. I didn't realize that because all the nodes I used to make the table had only 1 output, therefore I was getting money out of them as soon as I had a province. Ill try to modify the table to incorporate this, let's see if I can do it without adding too much confusion to it.
 
Last edited:

Jorlem

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Hi, it's me who made the table. And you're right in what you describe, if there's 2 outputs out of a non home trade node, with a province you collaborate to "pull trade out" of the node, but you need a merchant to "steer trade" to the output you want. I didn't realize that becaue all the nodes I used to make the table had only 1 output, therefore you were getting money out of them as soon as you had a province. Ill try to modify the table to incorporate this, let's see if I can do it without adding too much confusion to it.
Since you are here, I'd like to ask a question regarding 6D. If the node is upstream of your home node, wouldn't sending a merchant there to steer trade result in pushing more money downstream towards your home node, not pulling money out of the node that is downstream?
 

pedroantonio

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Since you are here, I'd like to ask a question regarding 6D. If the node is upstream of your home node, wouldn't sending a merchant there to steer trade result in pushing more money downstream towards your home node, not pulling money out of the node that is downstream?

My wording was a bit misleading, I corrected it to specify that the money is pulled out in the downstream direction, not out of the node which lies downstream (which is impossible, anyway).
All pulling of money out of a node is made in the downstream direction, the only thing that gets steered upstream is trade power.


I also changed 4B to "Pull money out of the node towards the downstream nodes. If there's more than one downstream node, you'll need to add a merchant to control towards which one of them the trade is steered.", to specify what Cymsdale said about the nodes with two downstream outputs.

By the way, I'm sorry about all the errors. I've played CKII but this is the first EU game I take seriously (never played more than 15 hours of EUIII), so in fact I'm really a rookie.
 
Last edited:

Hakko

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I don't understand wich routes are upstream and wich are downstream... for example: if my home trade node is Seville, i should consider the Mauritian trade node downstream (because it flow inside my home trade node in seville) and Genoa upstream because the money flow from seville to genoa? (Or maybe viceversa, Mauritian is upstream and genoa downstream)
 

pedroantonio

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I don't understand wich routes are upstream and wich are downstream... for example: if my home trade node is Seville, i should consider the Mauritian trade node downstream (because it flow inside my home trade node in seville) and Genoa upstream because the money flow from seville to genoa?

The terms downstream and upstream are relative to the direction of trade arrows, not to the position of the trade nodes in the N-S axis.

Downstream are the ones that lie in the direction of arrows, for example, Bourdeaux is downstream from Seville (and inversely, Seville is upstream from Bordeaux).
Upstream are the ones that lie against the direction of arrows, for example Mauritanian coast is upstream from Seville (and inversely, Seville is downstream from Mariutanian Coast).
 

Hakko

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The terms downstream and upstream are relative to the direction of trade arrows, not to the position of the trade nodes in the N-S axis.

Downstream are the ones that lie in the direction of arrows, for example, Bourdeaux is downstream from Seville (and inversely, Seville is upstream from Bordeaux).
Upstream are the ones that lie against the direction of arrows, for example Mauritanian coast is upstream from Seville (and inversely, Seville is downstream from Mariutanian Coast).
Thanks :)
 

pedroantonio

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Lol, I just sent a portuguese merchant to the Cape of Good Hope node, which has zero colonized provinces, the guy just sits there giving 100% trade power to Portugal in the node, but since theres no Trade value from the provinces there's no economic activity at all. It doesn't allow me to send light ships to protect, maybe it's because lack of docks.
 

skvent23

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Playing as Venice and comparing the trade routes as it was in real life it didn't match. In RL it should be that Venice merchants bought goods in Alexandria, Byzantines etc. and sold it all over Europe but in the game trade route from the middle east ends in Venice and goes nowhere. But according to 14th century trade map the trade routes should be going to Germany, Verona, Vienna and I see only a route coming from Vienna. May be I am not getting it right but can I make a new trade route to Germany and Italy?
 

Kadanz

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I still have to wrap my head around the new trade system. Doesn't look to hard, but still takes time to get used to it. Especially the transfer trade requires some further looking into, haven't fully grasped that either yet.
 

Jorlem

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My wording was a bit misleading, I corrected it to specify that the money is pulled out in the downstream direction, not out of the node which lies downstream (which is impossible, anyway).
All pulling of money out of a node is made in the downstream direction, the only thing that gets steered upstream is trade power.


I also changed 4B to "Pull money out of the node towards the downstream nodes. If there's more than one downstream node, you'll need to add a merchant to control towards which one of them the trade is steered.", to specify what Cymsdale said about the nodes with two downstream outputs.

By the way, I'm sorry about all the errors. I've played CKII but this is the first EU game I take seriously (never played more than 15 hours of EUIII), so in fact I'm really a rookie.
I think it might be clearer if you were to say 'push' rather than 'pull' in those situations. 'Pull' implies an inward motion, moving what is being pulled towards the actor, in this case the merchant. 'Push' implies an outward motion, moving the thing that is being acted upon away from the actor. You can't pull things away from yourself (unless you've got a pulley system set up, which isn't really relevant here), and since the merchant is at the node, it doesn't make sense to say that he is 'pulling'.
 

pedroantonio

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'Pull' implies an inward motion, moving what is being pulled towards the actor, in this case the merchant. 'Push' implies an outward motion, moving the thing that is being acted upon away from the actor. You can't pull things away from yourself

The thing is that the point of reference is not the merchant but the home trade node; I agree with you that the actor of the movement is the merchant and he should be the point of reference, but I was using the term "pull" because is the term that the in-game ledger (p. 36) uses to refer to money that is getting taken out of the trade node. Anyway, I don't pretend it to be perfect, I'm sure that after the game comes out on tuesday, wiki entries will be made explaining trade in a more intuitive manner.


EDIT: Ok, after thinking about it, I've changed all the "pull" references to just "transfer". I think it'll be less ambiguous that way.
 
Last edited:

Sopbucket

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Let me know if I'm wrong, but it seems that whether you're collecting or steering the trade, you're still controlling a certain percentage of the value of the trade node based on your trade power. If that's true, then what's the difference between collecting the money at a certain trade node (assuming you control one province) and steering it downstream to a home node where you will collect it later? Is it just that the modifiers are different?
 

Briloner

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A lot has been explained. (Also look at Peter’s Byzantium.) Let’s have a look at strategy. First of the basic rules:
- In each trade node money is generated, usually something flows in and usually something flows out.
- Traders can collect or steer.
- Everything, which is not collected, flows out.
- Traders fight balanced with their trade-power, which fraction of money is collected (number @ the trade node) and which fraction is steered and where to (number @ the trade line).

The decision points are:
- How to increase trade power?
- Where to place my merchants?

As for the trade-power:
- Each owned province counts.
- Some provinces get bonuses: Coastal (small), estuary (river delta, large) & special for historical importance (capital of Denmark --> sound toll, Hansa cities, Tangir).
- Buildings increase the trade-power.
- Traders themselves have some trade-power. (Collection power gets a malus everywhere but home) [Malus is a word :p]
- Light ships add trade-power.

So where to place my merchants?
Normally one collects at home. Collection elsewhere is usually not as good as steering (at least in the beginning).
Steering can be done cleverly, because you have friends – or at least guys with similar interests.
For example in my Portugal game I had a lot of Brazil colonized and placed one collection merchant at home and one steering agent at Ivory Coast. From Brazil everything flowed out, because I hat 100% trade power, but did nothing with it. At Ivory Coast little Investment (1 province @Fernando Po, 1 merchant & 2 light ships) allowed for 50% of money to flow in my direction around Africa, i.e. 50% of Brazil’s stuff and 50% of Ivory-Coast-Production went in my direction. The next node did not need my attention, because no-one wanted to collect (some even steered towards my home node).

The important take-home-message is not to look only at neighbor nodes or those where your “friends” already pull in your direction, but steer there where are big amounts are collected or steered in the wrong direction.
For Africa especially: @ Ivory Coast there is an estuary of Hausa. Taking that or selecting valuable provinces should be sufficient – especially if your competition is small enough, to agree to steer as well as you want. Only a European power dominating an African node and collecting there could be a problem. The node at the Gulf of Aden could also be shared. Remember: Only domineering powers will ever collect around Africa in order to dry that money-flow up.
This could lead to strange partnerships, e.g. Venice and Mamluks steering together towards Alexandria, but fighting then, how to share.

There are two trade-off of with regard to quality versus quantity and one limit concerning the later. At home one could try to get many provinces (y’all know world-control and stuff) or to develop your provinces with value-increasing buildings and better technology (role-playing).
This is even more important at colonies. Without buildings neither tariffs nor trade-goods will be there in abundance. Furthermore the number for ships limits the tariffs

Note, a totally dominated and well-developed, colonial trade-node should be worth collecting even with the malus – especially, when you could get only a share at the final destination in Europe. Taking strategical considerations like pirate-patrol, defensibility during wars, etc. into account, small but focused colonial empires seem to be a temptation.