So...Tourism? Where are they?

[Sinbuster]

Nice work, Turjan. I love seeing the community supporting the developers in squashing bugs and basically makings things better for everyone. It certainly beats trash-talking the developers which adds nothing and solves nothing. Since I can't rep you, consider this some imaginary rep.

 

[vukica]

really great work! just awesome

 

[Turjan]

By the way, now that I look at attractiveness instead of waiting for tourist numbers, I could see that this statement of mine was not completely correct:

First task was to restore tourism. I deleted the Space Elevator - no success. Which is in line with the observation that it is not only about the Space Elevator. Then I went and deleted the Eiffel Tower and the Arc de Triomphe. As a result, tourism was fully restored to 810 tourists/week.

Deleting the Space Elevator was sufficient to restore tourism (attractiveness came back), it just took quite a while until the tourists showed up.

I now checked with other unique buildings (like I already did before), and I can say that, for this city, an overall attractiveness of 1049 is tolerable and will survive, while an attractiveness of 1115 will collapse to zero and destroy tourism. Which is a bit lower than for my other city, so that doesn't seem to be a fixed limit, but there must be some other factor involved.

Edit: I did another test, this time with a completely different set of buildings. The first set had some buildings of relatively high attractiveness (should probably be toned down by the creators), and I only needed 6 unique buildings to get it to crash. With the second test, it were nineteen buildings, and only one was a bit high, but used somewhere in the middle of the test series. The value where tourism crashed was again 1115, with 1104 being tolerable. So it's definitely overall attractiveness which is the value that makes difficulties in some calculation.

Edit 2: I should probably add that this was done now with the original city that I submitted for testing the building limits (yay for those being increased!) and recommended again as test subject for the tourism bug. Which means, everyone who wants can repeat this. It's on the Steam workshop:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=540145042

 

[benzoll]

Thanks for the recommendation of the CSL Stats Panel again. This way, the tests only take seconds instead of hours, which is definitely an improvement. The attractiveness number can be higher than 1250, at least for a very short moment. This city starts with a number of 1117:


A few seconds after placing the Space Elevator, the next value is 1652:


Again, a few seconds later, it jumps to zero:


Which means that observing tourism itself is not really necessary, as that just follows from the attractiveness value, as has been said by you and the original Reddit article. That's pretty fortunate, as testing should be very quick now.

I have thought one thing:
1000 attractiveness gives "space elevator" more unique buldings, for example: total attractiveness= 1600.
If we give limit before big bug (12 tourist) 1100, the "space elevator" going down to 500 points, one 1ª solution could serve tourism.

After they would have to continue looking the bug.
What do you think?

Posdata.- In editor no monuments. If they came, would prove.

 

[ItalianGuy]

Maybe 2048 attractiveness is the limit and a bit overflow happens when it reaches 2049. I don't know the game engine or C#, but I'd add a safety check every time attractiveness is modified. (Actually I'd encapsulate attractiveness before adding the check)

 

[Turjan]

I have thought one thing:
1000 attractiveness gives "space elevator" more unique buldings, for example: total attractiveness= 1600.
If we give limit before big bug (12 tourist) 1100, the "space elevator" going down to 500 points, one 1ª solution could serve tourism.

After they would have to continue looking the bug.
What do you think?

I must admit I am not sure I completely understood you here, so did you suggest reducing the attractiveness of the Space Elevator in order to allow for more custom buildings, until the bug has been found? So, the Space Elevator must have an attractiveness of at least 535, probably more. I guess it's done to simulate pedestrian traffic in and out of the building. Many vanilla unique buildings have attractiveness values of 5 (not a typo), and Stadium and Theater of Wonders top the list of known values in the wiki with 20. That is often two orders of magnitude lower than the Space Elevator. So, in principle, your suggestion would work.

I guess my personal solution will be different. Up to now, I had the policy to not use any monuments in my city other than the Space Elevator and the Fusion Power Plant, because the others do things I don't want (I put them in my uploaded test city only because I had to remove dozens of custom assets, and I wanted to prevent the city from collapsing). Which means, I'll just put the Space Elevator on the list of monuments that do things I don't want for the moment. My other test city has no monuments at all, so no big deal.

There's also the issue with quite a few custom buildings. Pretty much all of them have attractiveness values that are higher than those of vanilla buildings, although most modders only use very small increases. As higher attractiveness means more visible visitors, some modders use attractiveness values in the hundreds (a few custom casinos come to mind, also some supermarkets I tried) to make the lots look less deserted, which will of course replicate the issue with the Space Elevator.

 

[Turjan]

Maybe 2048 attractiveness is the limit and a bit overflow happens when it reaches 2049. I don't know the game engine or C#, but I'd add a safety check every time attractiveness is modified. (Actually I'd encapsulate attractiveness before adding the check)

I guess I was not clear in my posts then, sorry for that. In the test city that I uploaded, the bit overflow (or whatever it is) happens between attractiveness values 1104 and 1115. I know that my other city has working tourism with an attractiveness value of 1117 or so (the value fluctuates every week, so must include things other than just unique buildings), and it also has more tourists than this one. Which means a simple test for attractiveness won't help, as there is at least one other value that affects the failure in the formula, a value that has not been identified for the time being.

 

[Inge Jones]

I wish the "per week" was a rolling "last 7 days" rather than go back to zero each week. It doesn't really give me much sense of how I am doing unless I stop and work out how many days into the week we were when I checked. Also... I am getting tons of passenger ships into my harbour, with tons of passengers. How come I only get about 8 tourists a week into my statue of liberty that is just down the road from there?

 

[BlackViper.com]

@BlackViper.com: Hopefully, you have a savegame that's easier to upload than these. I'll see what else I can do here.

My fault for replying a bit late.
No, unfortunately, I do not have my old save games as I did not cloud save them nor back them up. To be blunt... I kinda have more fun starting over than coming back to a city that is "old", so I did not bother to save them as I did not anticipate they would be valuable.
As stated above, thankfully people are pulling together to finally help squish this bug, and thank you CO for listening!

 

[benzoll]

I must admit I am not sure I completely understood you here, so did you suggest reducing the attractiveness of the Space Elevator in order to allow for more custom buildings, until the bug has been found? So, the Space Elevator must have an attractiveness of at least 535, probably more. I guess it's done to simulate pedestrian traffic in and out of the building. Many vanilla unique buildings have attractiveness values of 5 (not a typo), and Stadium and Theater of Wonders top the list of known values in the wiki with 20. That is often two orders of magnitude lower than the Space Elevator. So, in principle, your suggestion would work.

I guess my personal solution will be different. Up to now, I had the policy to not use any monuments in my city other than the Space Elevator and the Fusion Power Plant, because the others do things I don't want (I put them in my uploaded test city only because I had to remove dozens of custom assets, and I wanted to prevent the city from collapsing). Which means, I'll just put the Space Elevator on the list of monuments that do things I don't want for the moment. My other test city has no monuments at all, so no big deal.

There's also the issue with quite a few custom buildings. Pretty much all of them have attractiveness values that are higher than those of vanilla buildings, although most modders only use very small increases. As higher attractiveness means more visible visitors, some modders use attractiveness values in the hundreds (a few custom casinos come to mind, also some supermarkets I tried) to make the lots look less deserted, which will of course replicate the issue with the Space Elevator.

Exactly, that I suggest. This original game (no mods) everyone could put all special buildings, unique and space elevator (this with 500 o 535 points, no more) and to prevent bug "12 tourists" (attractiveness max 1100).
After need further investigation referred that overflow bits of that talk.

 

[benzoll]

I wish the "per week" was a rolling "last 7 days" rather than go back to zero each week. It doesn't really give me much sense of how I am doing unless I stop and work out how many days into the week we were when I checked. Also... I am getting tons of passenger ships into my harbour, with tons of passengers. How come I only get about 8 tourists a week into my statue of liberty that is just down the road from there?

The immense majority of passengers are cims of the city itself, no tourist.
Space elevator is equal to port or train station or airport. Their only difference is their attractiveness.
They also helps the traffic, especially at the entrances to the city, avoiding traffic jams.

Of this I am not sure, but when passengers increases in all terminals, is when there is high unemployment in the city.
When there is no unemployment, that week down passengers.
Summary: it seems that our cims loved like more work, visit shop or go tourism in surrounding cities and not in his own city . Jaja.

 

[Turjan]

Maybe 2048 attractiveness is the limit and a bit overflow happens when it reaches 2049.

Just to show that it is not:

Then again, there was nothing to calculate in this "city".
(Just to be clear: This post was only half serious ).

 

[ItalianGuy]

How did you reach that value? What buildings are there?

 

[Turjan]

As I said, that wasn't completely serious. I had started a new city and put one unique building and a square at where I wanted to anchor things. There were no inhabitants and no tourists (I think those need some minimum population?). So I guess the attractiveness calculation didn't have much to go on. After the first people moved in, the number jumped to 26 or something like that.

This shows that the "attractiveness" value is not simply the sum of the unique building numbers.

 

[benzoll]

If I understood well, that number (1301720) occurs at the beginning with 1 unique and without residents, and the arrival of the 1st residents, is normalized.
And it made this mod unlock uniques. Attractiveness value went crazy, haha.

That may be so., the sum of attractiveness starts when located residents.

 

[benzoll]

After last patch started a town in original map without mods or added assets.
Reach unlock monuments and put "space elevator", "central fusion" more 30 unique buildings (the map is boreal, therefore there is no more unique buildings).
After playing two hours more, I do not bug tourism to 12 tourist. Attractiveness remains in 1345. Savegame:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=555622098
I keep looking.

 

[Turjan]

After playing two hours more, I do not bug tourism to 12 tourist. Attractiveness remains in 1345. Savegame:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=555622098
I keep looking.

I added 10 more unique buildings (from the tourism tab and landmarks from the preorder tab), plus the missing monuments, and you get a stable 1522 attractiveness. However, the number of tourists remains low at 345. This may have to do with the size of the city, which is only around 80k inhabitants.

 

[benzoll]

From my savegame given above:
I reach 100k cims, I put the 3 monuments was missing me, climbed attractiveness to 1432 and has remained there. Tourist are +-350.
In this city, it seems that there will be no bug tourist to 12.

Bug only appears in cties with european theme? in tests that I did in my another city was European theme.

 

[benzoll]

I added 10 more unique buildings (from the tourism tab and landmarks from the preorder tab), plus the missing monuments, and you get a stable 1522 attractiveness. However, the number of tourists remains low at 345. This may have to do with the size of the city, which is only around 80k inhabitants.

Turjan , I'm not sure, you used my savegame?
If so, how do you put 10 unique buildings more? there are only 30, and are placed.

 

[Turjan]

Turjan , I'm not sure, you used my savegame?

Yes, I did.

If so, how do you put 10 unique buildings more? there are only 30, and are placed.

I mentioned which ones: the 5 landmarks from the preorder DLC, and the 5 unique tourism buildings from the After Dark DLC.