So the Tall play style is all but done away with now??

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I'm not even sure how the tall vs. wide conversation got started here regarding Stellarus. Tall vs. Wide was a real thing back when I was a big Stars! player in the 1990's, but the game was structured to allow this. Stating it as simply as I can you would reduce your habitability to gain more and better factories so that your economy would eventually build up to match the economies of the players who set their habitability to be very 'wide'. I mean these are race creation variables that do not have direct counterparts with Stellarus. The goal, in Stars! terms, was to create a Monster Race. A monster was simply defined a a race capable to creating 25,000 resources or more by game turn 50, since resources was the main driver of your economy. Since the best way, well the only way to have an enjoyable game of Stars! was to play multiplayer games via email, if your race was unable to routinely reach "25k by 50", you really didn't stand much of a chance for survival.

I've tried doing this with a Stellarus equivalent tall race without much success, but then I'm not exactly a genius like some of the guys I played against in Stars!

Perhaps there's a genius race designer here who can emulate a playable Stellarus race similar to a Stars! tall race, but it ain't me. :(
 
My recollection is that in every past iteration of Stellaris the mechanism to limit large empires would always have various unintended consequences, would be confusing to the player, and cause arguments...and largely didn't work.

At least the current mechanics are clear and transparent, the admin cap tell you what the impact is on the costs of technology etc, you hire more bureaucrats, it's clear.
It's probably the case that bureaucrats need to be either more expensive or less powerful to make expanding more of a burden on an empire, but at least the mechanics that currently exist allow that change to be made simple and easily by just adjusting the input and output of the bureaucrat job.

More to the point, none of the previous mechanics led to interesting game play (nor does the present one, but at least it isn't annoying on top of that).
And this is why I maintain that mechanics should be made to make running large empires more challenging in other ways (events, rebellions, etc) and perhaps also to allow small empires to specialize further in some way.

Honestly I'd call the older (pre 2.2) system simple and elegant. You didn't need to pay much attention to it for the most part, but it was working in the background to help provide a better game.

Its the 2.2 version that caused a great deal of confusion due to the word cap and turning red once you met it, despite its penalties being rather weak. 2.6 then made it an actual game mechanic with interactivity, which players quickly optimized into irrelevancy. The new system is quite annoying as now I have another upkeep to deal with. 2.6+ is the most annoying form of size penalties there's been. You could literally ignore it before and just let the game work to balance things.

I do agree more political and event based ramifications for size would be great, the game definitely needs to feel more like things are happening, and less 'sim planet'. But again, if its something the player can easily game their way through, you risk making it inconsequential, and if you make them extremely crippling, you end up with a more annoying system than we have now.
 
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I'm not even sure how the tall vs. wide conversation got started here regarding Stellarus. [...]

The thing in Stellaris is that going bigger and bigger is the only way to compete. The changes with 2.6 for sprawl were the last nail in the coffin of the idea of playing tall in Stellaris. Smaller empires with less space always fall behind and can never catch up. When i look at other games where i have to manage empires theres os always some kind of malus for long distances or big builds. In Total War: Rome 2 it is corruption and in the first game Rome: Total War you had a very strong penalty for happiness the further your cities were away from your capital.

Stellaris also lacks diplomatic penalties for grabbing much space. What about buffing that relative power malus, so if you go to big to fast your best friend will be war on all fronts because your neighbours want to keep you small?

There are no penalties for wide empires at all. Here are my ideas to encourage "tall" playstyle:

- planets outside the core sector should be much harder to maintain stability and production and should "generate" much more sprawl
- sprawl stil needs to be maintained by bureaucrats, but cant be nullified, the way it was in 2.5 was acually pretty decent. not maintained sprawl will reduce happiness, approval for the government, rises crime and lowers stability.
- pop growth needs to be an empire wide thing. 10 planets with 10 pops should produce less pop-growth than 2 planets with 50 pops each.
- sprawl can only be maintained where it is generated, every planet needs its own administrative layer to be an efficient part of your empire

This would make the game more interesting in general, because even smaller empires can be a thread to me. Right now it is just stomping through the galaxy...

further gameplay ideas:
- building a colony ship needs a pop from a planet so real growth is needed to found a new colony.

- sectors can be granted autonomy, which reduces the sprawl from them significantly because they will govern themselves. I can stil build and play them completely, but they will get their own ethics over time, will attract pops with these from all your empire. In what direction a sector shifts during the game is dependand on the conditions in and around them. This could open the gate for internal politics... external powers could use these to gain influence within your empire...

Just my thoughts i had while playing for like... 30 minutes?...
 
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You could remake bureaucrats to work so that give far less admin cap overall (say half what they currently provide) and that they reduce the pop and district sprawl penalty for the planet they are based on. Combine this with having the effect altered by stability bonuses (which they currently don't) and it may be closer to where we were before their introduction.
 
Let's do a thought experiment. Let's say that the penalty for going over the admin cap is 1000 times bigger. What would be the effect of this?

Any empire that goes over the cap is technologically/unity frozen and unable to use campaigns.

This will punish tall empires severely, meanwhile wide empires will be completely unaffected. Staying below the cap is easier when you're wide. In fact it's trivially easy when you're wide, I do it all the time. When I play, I play wide and I always stay below the cap. The opportunity cost of staying below the cap is something I can only afford because I go wide in the first place, a tall empire will have less space to put their bureaucrat buildings.

It would be very easy to prove this as well, just make a mod that alters the defines values.

I've actually tried this approach, increasing the penalty for going over and increasing the cost of bureaucrats, it didn't help. It made things worse for tall empires.

I think one final piece of evidence that bureaucrats are the problem is this: we did not have this problem in 2.5, bureaucrats didn't exist in 2.5. This problem is caused by bureaucrats.
With due respect, that's not a properly controlled experiment :)

Or at least it's drawing conclusions ("bureaucrats are the problem") from incomplete data. In your gedankexperiment, you're only increasing the penalties for exceeding the cap, not changing the way the cap is exceeded.

As another thought experiment, if the first 10 colonies and 1000 Pops produced *no* Sprawl, a tall Empire (defined as one that seeks to minimise its number of population centres but make them as efficient as possible, rather than expending Pops and treasure on building up new Colonies) would be at an advantage "per system" even before resource was expended on making the small number of colonies more efficient, because they wouldn't need any Admin Centres at all. If the amount of Sprawl generated per colony incorporated then gradually increased every time a colony was established (either by conquest or settlement), that per-unit advantage would increase.

Sure, if the only tool available is increasing the effect of exceeding the cap, Bureaucrats look like the problem. Knowing next to nothing about modding, I don't know that there are other tools available to modders/the community but for sure there are more tools available to the Paradox crew.
 
Have not read full thread, but I feel like this conversation happens like biweekly at least.

The thing is, tall is actually a lot more viable now than it was before, federations have made alternatives to the paint the map wide playstyle much more workable. You also get ringworld origin, which is a huge boost to tall playstyle.

The problem is that its all relative. Wide has also gotten a lot of love because of bureaucrats. Obviously, now that you can cancel out sprawl, towards late game a wide empire is an unstoppable juggernaut because you can just scale tech production in ways tall empires simply cant match.

So its not that tall has been nerfed, its that wide was buffed a lot. That being said, if you are playing single player, there is no reason not to play tall if you want. Will you outperform a wide playthrough? Probably not. That doesnt mean that its not doable. There have been quality of life improvements for tall playstyles because you can do it as a hegemony federation instead, force your conquered vassals to join and you tell them what to ship designs to build. Since your vassals/federation allies get the difficulty bonuses to their alloy production and federation fleets only cost you a percentage of your fleet cap, the federation fleet can be much stronger than your personal fleet. This means that a hegemony can be almost as good as a wide empire but a lot less micro...
 
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With due respect, that's not a properly controlled experiment :)

Or at least it's drawing conclusions ("bureaucrats are the problem") from incomplete data. In your gedankexperiment, you're only increasing the penalties for exceeding the cap, not changing the way the cap is exceeded.

As another thought experiment, if the first 10 colonies and 1000 Pops produced *no* Sprawl, a tall Empire (defined as one that seeks to minimise its number of population centres but make them as efficient as possible, rather than expending Pops and treasure on building up new Colonies) would be at an advantage "per system" even before resource was expended on making the small number of colonies more efficient, because they wouldn't need any Admin Centres at all. If the amount of Sprawl generated per colony incorporated then gradually increased every time a colony was established (either by conquest or settlement), that per-unit advantage would increase.

Sure, if the only tool available is increasing the effect of exceeding the cap, Bureaucrats look like the problem. Knowing next to nothing about modding, I don't know that there are other tools available to modders/the community but for sure there are more tools available to the Paradox crew.
Changing a single variable and leaving everything else the same is the definition of a controlled experiment. I'm not going to argue with you on that, you can either argue against the thought experiment itself, the conclusion or I will take any other answer as a concession.

But since you want to make a different thought experiment let's actually explore that:

Effect
Everyone gets the first 10 colonies and 1000 pops "for free".(that and only that, this is a controlled experiment)

If we assume this tall empire builds on average 20 district per planet (these are 100 pop planets after all), and since they should all be within or close to the capitol district there should be no more than 20 systems (probably more but I am generous for your side here, if you contest this then your argument is weakened).
So that's still 220 empire sprawl, down from 770 empire sprawl that would've been produced by the pops and colonies.
With 30 admin cap for free they would've had to have 74 bureaucrats (assuming no bureaucrat planet, no tech/unity efficiencies that make buraucrats more op).
From 74 down to just 19, They get 55 pops freed up, or out of 1000 pops 5.5% more pops producing resources. Note that with tech/traditions this becomes smaller.

However wide empires get this bonus too, it's just that any colony and pop that exceeds this arbitrary line has to be accompanied by a bureaucrat if they wish to stay below the admin cap (which they will want to).

So a 100 colony 10000 pop empire will have to pay for 90 colonies and 9000 pops (since the first 10/1000 are "free" of sprawl), we can assume it's also 10x as much space occupied.
That turns out to be 90 x 5 + 9000 x 0.5 + 200 + 20x100 = 7150 empire sprawl, to get your cap from base 30 to 7150 you need a whooping 713 bureaucrats.

So to go from 1000 pops on 10 colonies to 10000 pops on 100 colonies you go from 19 bureaucrats to 712, or 2% into 7% of your pop will be bureaucrats as you increase in size.

Meanwhile this 10x bigger empire can easily produce 10x as much tech, unity and ships. So it will advance 10 times faster and have 10 times bigger/more fleet.
Oh no wait 9.93 times faster, oops. Wow that did absolutely nothing.

Conclusion: making the 1000 pops and 10 colonies free of sprawl has a negligible effect that can't ever come close to making tall viable in the slightest sense.

In fact the 10x bonus from being wide is also going to totally and utterly eclipse things like ethos and civics, all RP is overshadowed and effectively gone.

I really wish you would actually conduct your own thought experiment, it's trollish to just dismiss others and put out your own vague experiment and then not even conduct the experiment. Lazy and selfish. Don't do it.
 
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Changing a single variable and leaving everything else the same is the definition of a controlled experiment. I'm not going to argue with you on that, you can either argue against the thought experiment itself, the conclusion or I will take any other answer as a concession.
The problem with your 'experiment' is that it doesn't actually change anything significant. It says "let's do the same but more". Of course you get the same result but worse.

Something else needs to change. You are stuck on straight lines and they won't achieve a distinction between Tall and Wide approaches.
 
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What about removing the planet based pop growth and modding in pop growth into most jobs?
The free pops from colonisation will still give a bonus growth but if you set the per job growth such that base planet growth is more or less the same as in the vanilla game it should be manageable for some time.

Though you could probably mod in a pop killing event on building a colony ship.

So say 1 job gives 0.1 growth. With 20 pops on one planet or ten planets you'll get 2. Plus bonuses and penalties on the planets themselves due to planetary features, buildings and so on.
 
The problem with your 'experiment' is that it doesn't actually change anything significant. It says "let's do the same but more". Of course you get the same result but worse.

Something else needs to change. You are stuck on straight lines and they won't achieve a distinction between Tall and Wide approaches.
I'm looking at a different versions of Stellaris were distinctions of Tall and Wide existed and where Tall actually had a niche advantage.

My point of "let's do the same but worse" is that's the only outcome we can ever have so long as we can nullify all sprawl penalties. It's a controlled experiment where I show proof of my claim. Where is yours?

The only way to fix the problem is to remove the ability to nullify sprawl penalties. This problem only began to exist when that was changed. Just look at the evidence, think it through all the way to the end please.
 
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Absolutely agree. There's a reason Monaco isn't a research giant, even though it has a massive wealth-per-head-of-population.

The problems with sprawling Empires should be social and political. A sprawling empire should require management of splinter groups and suppression of revolt. It should require unpalatable political decisions like going to war with neighbours who you'd (rationally) be better off remaining at peace with, in order to create a common enemy. It would require a method of delegating some measure of autonomy to placate separatists (short of releasing them as tributaries/vassals, though that option should remain).

Given the obvious power advantage that size gives, diplomatic relations should also be affected. That neighbour that's growing, they're going to want to keep growing, and the only way they're going to be able to grow is to eat you. Neighbours of large nations should pre-empt expansionism and combine effectively. It's what Europe did to contain France in the early 19th Century.

A sprawling empire should require management of logistical elements as well. If all your food is at one end of your Galaxy-spanning empire, the planets at the far end should be paying more to have their food defecit shipped in than if it was coming from the neighbouring system. Consider how long it can take for a fast military ship to traverse an empire, then think how much longer a megatonne bulk grain carrier would take, and how many of them you need to move to provide for billions of people on a planet with no food production.

Commerce protection is also too easy. As the internal area covered by an Empire increases, the effort that is needed to combat piracy should also scale. Currently it doesn't, and when you get Gateways, it pretty much goes away entirely, because Trade uses the Gates, and, even if it didn't, your Trade protection projects through them anyway, so even firehose trade mains worth hundreds would be fully covered.

Admin Capacity vs Sprawl is a jejeune attempt to abstract dealing with these issues into a single balance with a single (core) means of managing it. And it is thoroughly unsatisfying. It's an understandable approach. The computational burden of determining the cost of every imported good (and all the other factors affecting and affected by Sprawl) would be immense. The AI would have to cope with the additional complexity, and it can't cope with the current level of economic detail.

Part of the problem with the way this approach has been implemented is that everything is linear. The hundredth system adds the same amount of Sprawl as the second. The 1000th Pop adds the same amount of Sprawl as the 10th. If non-linear progressions were used more (say the Sprawl increase per system added doubled every 10 systems added, and/or is multiplied by a factor, potentially also non-linear, based on the number of jumps from the Capital, or another administrative centre), the system would develop inflection points where the advantages of expanding would be outweighed by the advantages of keeping your numbers controlled and your lines of communication short.

Another area where the management of large empires could be made more problematic is in applying greater stability penalties for changes. At the moment, you can change a planet's Designation at will, for no cost, for example. Changing Sector structure is entirely without cost (or benefit, largely).

A third problem area comes with the management of diverse populations. This is largely irrelevant within the current paradigm and should be given greater emphasis.

Making empire management more nuanced would also allow more differentiation between government types. A centralised authoritarian Empire could grow to a larger natural size than a more laissez-faire one, perhaps, but the necessary stifling social straitjacket might cripple their research efforts. A liberal approach might improve research, but risk chunks of the empire falling away as independent states of varying friendliness. Monobloc empires like Hive and Machine Minds would have their own problems, possibly being extremely brittle/vulnerable to random problems of mutation (of control code, or genetics) that they struggle to cope with in a more sporadic and unpredictable fashion, while otherwise being more efficient. As ever, any choice should have consequences of future decision and/or direct effect.

Something that I personally think would add interest would be more random outcomes for standard things. Research as an example: when Sol III took on the research card "Fusion power", the date of completion was 30 years in the future. At various stages, it's failed random rolls, and it's still (50 years later) "at least a decade" (so, 30 years then) away. Very few people at the same time Fusion power research began would have predicted the meteoric speed of development of IT, which seems to have made every success roll at the first attempt apart perhaps from quantum computing. Social policy is not an exact science, nor economics. So any given socio-economic stimulus may have different results in subtly (i.e. below the game abstraction layer) different circumstances. However, gamers on the whole seem to despise random outcomes outside combat, even when they're the best abstraction available, perhaps because they can banjax carefully-planned min-maxing.

Edited: spelling. How come you always spot the typo as you hit "post"?

This one of the most thought out take on the topic I have ever read. Would love to see something like this in the game, including the last paragraph. ;-)
 
There has NEVER been a "tall" play style that couldn't also, and exponentially better, be achieved by the "wide" play style. I don't understand why people insist on this. You can't do it. Period. More is better. End of discussion.

The ONLY exception would be if there were finite resources. But at a galactic scale, resources may as well be considered infinite.

Scale matters. This game allows for basically infinite resource input, provided you can conquer it. Therefore a wider empire will ALWAYS have the advantage. That’s it. Nothing left to argue. Discussion over.
 
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Why? (Not a rhetorical question. I'm sure there is a reason. I may or may not agree with it. I don't know what it is.)
For me, the only reason to play tall would be: less micromanagement!

Personally, I like playing DA most for these reasons:
1. no stratum: all pops will always instantly move to whatever jobs are available when I disable some of them rather than staying around as "ruler" or specialist unemployed sissies
2. no claims: just conquer as much as you can - one less sink for influence
3. no factions to manage
4. no need for CGs, less need for food - it's easier to keep the economy balanced, and managing multiple specialized planets
5. trivial to produce oodles of energy in late game with generator ring worlds (in case you actually need more energy)
6. Less leader deaths & need to replace them

All of these things mean less things to manage. While some think it also makes them the strongest empire, I couldn't care less. For me the main reason is: less micromanagement = more fun!
 
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The ONLY exception would be if there were finite resources. But at a galactic scale, resources may as well be considered infinite.

Scale matters. This game allows for basically infinite resource input, provided you can conquer it. Therefore a wider empire will ALWAYS have the advantage. That’s it. Nothing left to argue. Discussion over.
That depends on how exactly the game models resources. Let's take for example our real world. Speaking realistically humanity has no need for other star systems for millions of years as our system alone has absolutely enormous amounts of resources. Even ignoring straight up dismantling planets the asteroid belt and Oort cloud alone could provide resources for millions if not billions of giant spaceships. Then there is mining moons, skimming helium and hydrogen off Saturn and Jupiter and so on.

How to do it in Stellaris? Change the pop growth from per planet to per population/empire and allow to have mining stations upgraded or even pop worked. Maybe just use a mod to transform asteroids/gas giants into possible "planets" with their own resources and buildings with higher upkeep.

But why would you still expand outward in this case you would ask? Because certain planets and systems can have rare resources or just have really good modifiers for extraction of basic ones. Plus anomalies and dig sites. But you no longer will rush to colonise every planet as it won't be effective, at least not until much later in the game when you have the tech to remove the penalties to habitation and so on.

A tall playstyle in this case will have similar population to a wide playstyle but concentrated in very few systems. It probably will have worse resource income (unless really lucky) but could concentrate on heavy planet/system specialisation as it will have enormous centralised output and as such buildings with per planet/system bonus effect will be very good.
 
Millions of years is pushing it. Severely. Even thousands of years would almost certainly see our energy needs increase hundreds or more times over. Assuming we neither get wiped out nor stagnate, the resources available in the solar system almost certainly wouldn't last 500 thousand years. Definitely wouldn't last millions.
 
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Assuming constant exponential population growth we may exhaust them that fast. But it's still unlikely. We'll need to grind through ~3-5 Earth masses to deal just with asteroids. And with carbon becoming more and more prevalent in industry metals become less of a bottleneck.

Still even a couple thousand years is more than Stellaris games model.
 
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Constant population growth is not necessary at all. Energy use per person is and has been growing for centuries. Even without any population growth we'd run out of materials long before a million years went by. We'd need a dyson sphere of some sort which would use the majority of materials all by itself.
Edit
In about 75 years we multiplied our energy use by 10 times. 1930 - 2005. The global population only grew by about 3 times over the same period. Energy use per person therefore increased roughly 3 times over the 75 year period. Multiply that by a thousand for 75,000 years and you get 3,000 times more energy used per person than today. The average energy use per household in the US in 2018 was 914 kWh per month. Assuming a household is one person, that makes the projected average energy use per person in the year 75,2018 at about 2.7 million kWh per month. That exceeds the solar radiation hitting the planet and we aren't even 1/10th of the way to a million years.
 
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I'm really wary of any predictions that use infinite exponential growth as their basis. In 99% of cases that just means that we didn't hit the point of diminishing returns yet.
 
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Energy use per person therefore increased roughly 3 times over the 75 year period
That's an interesting point. More generally, living standards increase over time. An economic model that increases basic consumption of pops dependend on level of technology could help greatly to slow down the runaway economy we currently have.
 
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I'm really wary of any predictions that use infinite exponential growth as their basis. In 99% of cases that just means that we didn't hit the point of diminishing returns yet.

Then there's no problem, because I'm using a stable growth over a set period of time. There's no infinite exponential growth. And, frankly, I'm likely heavily underestimating average energy use per person. The amount of energy needed to harvest and transport materials around the solar system is radically greater than anything we've ever done.
 
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