So the Muscovy thread got me thinking: If France is #1, who is #2? And who is #3?

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TheDanish

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Timurids can form the mugals and I saw them get pretty powerfull on the wealth of nations dev session. They had giagantic armies and navies, huge income and many provinces. Ming on the other hand can colonize siberia and can eat his weaker neigbours. I saw AI ming eat into southeast asia around 1550 in 1.8. A player can obviously do much better than that.
As for other players playing castille, the ottomans or austria: ROTW can only hope they keep each other in check at least until they can build up their own powerbase. Timurids and Ming have certainly much potential.

I play Ming frequently in SP but not in MP. It seems like if the Ming player can make a deal with one of the colonizers and westernize quickly, Ming would easily be among the top empires in the game, mediocre NIs notwithstanding. IIRC in 1.8 Ming's base tax starts well into the 400s. That's more than France, England, and Castile combined. Westernize and you make full use of all that delicious land.
 

TheMeInTeam

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I play Ming frequently in SP but not in MP. It seems like if the Ming player can make a deal with one of the colonizers and westernize quickly, Ming would easily be among the top empires in the game. IIRC in 1.8 Ming's base tax starts well into the 400s. That's more than France, England, and Castile combined. Westernize and you make full use of all that delicious land.

The trick is to keep some guys in the Americas and wait for a war between two colonials. Colony jack a 950 pop colony and sit on it while they're fighting, maybe even join the war on one of their sides to avoid the stabhit from doing this. When the colony finishes, you can westernize even during the war.

You can avoid "no intentional selling or losing provinces to westernize" rule this way, as the person giving up the colony is most certainly not willing, and the person you're joining has incentive to help you do it as you'll be a thorn in his rival's side potentially.

But Ming is often not allowed in MP lol.
 

D-A-C

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Well if played by humans its:

Ottomans by a country mile, I would even argue they challenge for top spot in player hands.

Austria is a solid 3 spot, followed by Castille and Muscovy, although apparently England got better, but 30 years or more of 0/0/0 can put a dent in things for anyone, especially if followed by 1/3/1 or something like that lol.

So:

France
Otto (close to being 1 IMO)
Austria
Castille
Muscovy
 

TheDanish

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The trick is to keep some guys in the Americas and wait for a war between two colonials. Colony jack a 950 pop colony and sit on it while they're fighting, maybe even join the war on one of their sides to avoid the stabhit from doing this. When the colony finishes, you can westernize even during the war.

You can avoid "no intentional selling or losing provinces to westernize" rule this way, as the person giving up the colony is most certainly not willing, and the person you're joining has incentive to help you do it as you'll be a thorn in his rival's side potentially.

But Ming is often not allowed in MP lol.

Good to know. I've always either colonized Africa or wedged my way into Europe at Muscovy's expense.

It's sad Ming isn't permitted in many multiplayer games, but I understand why. If it westernizes, suddenly they're a rival for France.
 

FloatingOrb

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I play a lot of Ming, but never in MP since people usually want everyone in the same area :(.
Although the one MP game I did play with Ming I absolutely smashed face. Its basically all of asia (india and central asia included) vs the europeans, and Ming still had that +100% manpower ambition. You thought russia was scary?

As for an order of strongest nations I would go
1) France/Spain. Depends on how early the iberean wedding happens and when the burgundian event fires.
2) whoever lost the number 1 spot
3) austria/ottos (depends on burgundy again, usually ottomans take this spot)
4) Timirids
5)Malaysia. This one may seem odd but I have seen a few games where they just go bonkers with asian trade if the player focuses on colonization. they rack up ridiculous score by colonizing and taking over Ming.

Honestly the number 5 spot can be taken by any asian or north african power who expands well. Honorable mentions are Vijayanagar-hindustan and any successful horde (hordes are still powerful in my opinion). A fast westernized african nation can also get pretty scary, lots of weak provinces with gold to snap up, but I don't know many people who actually play them.
 
Last edited:

Roelath

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Single player

1. Ottomans
2. France
3. Castile
4. England
5. Austria


Ottomans deserve the top because of their nearly open ended aggressive actions consistently. Take 4-6 provinces in Europe? Head to Africa or Asia... Take 4-6 there and just rotate again. Early 1500s I can muster 150k+ manpower and an income to raise up 100k+ regiments with a full cannon back line.
 

Giffica

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2 Ottos
3 Castille
4 Austria
5 Brandenburg (It has a great potential: good player will make it into supreme superpower, but it's quite easy to screw up)
Absolutely not Ottos 2nd. Castile is 2nd, if not first.

What stands in Castile's way? Guaranteed Alliance with France if you don't fuck it up, meaning the only major threat to you can't stop you. You get the only PU in the game that gives FREE integration of massive amounts of land (can vary if Aragon invades north italy, if they take Rome, Ancona, if they integrate Naples first, etc). That PU alone propels you into Italy, giving you an easy time boosting your income.

Not only that, but Paradox adding some more minor states in the Mahgreb, including releasable Fez, means UNLIKE previous patch, Castile can gobble up North Africa (by vassalizing and feeding) without the Berber traditions +100% coring cost. Making that area incredibly easy to expand into, especially since it's virtually impossible for Castile to lose to the Arabs there, unless you are brain dead.

Next, Castile isn't just Castile. Castile is Portugal+Castile+Aragon, realistically. You can lock Portugal out of colonizing before they even colonize. No one else has this ability. This means before Portugal gets a single colony (even if they get 1 or 2, it's not a huge issue) they will be your vassal. Since Portgual is the 2nd best colonizer in the game, that means Castile is essentially 2 nations who are able to colonizing from the very start of colonization. South America and the Caribbean are 100% yours. Mexico is basically yours, unless you don't prioritize colonies properly and France/England sneak a few in there. In my experience with the patch, EVEN WITH THE DOUBLED NEW WORLD PROVINCES, you can STILL coast lock the rest of the Europeans, minus Canada. Canada, and maybe 3-4 Caribbean islands are the only places you will not colonize first, but it's irrelevant since it's incredibly easy to take them and just give them to your colonial nations. In my last Spain game I was able to almost get 100% of the US. The only place missing was a small, small amount of Vermont/Maine area in the north, which was easily feed-able to my nation. The only colonizing area you can't secure are the Islands in South East Asia, simply because there are so many. However you can secure Australia 100%, Philippines, and most of the important larger islands you can colonize.

All of this along with marriage+alliance with France for 100% of the game. On top of that, although unlikely, you can luck into inhereting burgundy. My previous game I got a PU because they took my Dynasty, oddly enough. This was followed SHORTLY after by Austria falling into a PU with me, and much much later I enforced a PU with France and Venice, making anything France managed to colonize mine anyway.

No one seems to touch West Africa, so by the time you are ready to move into there you can have the increased Admin Efficiency and you can sweep through the entire reagon within 30-40 years.

This is all in addition to taking over any nations in South East Asia, India, Arabia, etc through out the game.

Pics for reference. Note that in this France, Portugal, Brittany, Flanders, the Pope, and Venice are all under my rule. France and Venice in a PU, the rest are vassals.
mamDYfz.jpg
LM8atOw.jpg


I would argue Spain is most capable of World conquest. With the right ideas your economy will skyrocket, and your military will be unstoppable. Their national idea's give 5 discipline, and 15% morale. You can instantly convert anything with religious ideas, no matter how many provinces you take so your nation is incredibly stable throughout the entire game. You can just spam the Papacy for 1% mercantilism all the time because of Spains +2 papal influence. While the rest of Europe is pissing on each other, Spain just fucks off to the rest of the world and uses their alliance with France as a buffer. No threats to them what-so-ever.


This is all without a single coalition forming. Spain is the only major nation in the game, bar maybe england, who can form an empire this size without getting a coalition against them. France is obscenely better at the start, but 1 province into the HRE and they have no where to expand. As well as relying on heavy luck to inherit burgundy, and a TERRIBLE Navy that prevents them from really going against england very easily. Spain+Portugal in 1500 can easily hold off a player France. Plus, their end node is garbage, and since England, Spain, and Portugal are infinitely better colonizers/naval powers, goodluck getting trade back from the new world. France is heavily overrated simply because of their armies. Admittedly Ai france rarely, if ever, falls, and a war against them early is borderline impossible to win, but if you are a nation that is really going up against france, just take quantity and quality and call them a day. They can't expand fast enough to outscale you on manpower and force limits because of their Aggressive Expansion problems in the HRE.
 
Last edited:

Fionnix

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Absolutely not Ottos 2nd. Castile is 2nd, if not first.

What stands in Castile's way? Guaranteed Alliance with France if you don't fuck it up, meaning the only major threat to you can't stop you. You get the only PU in the game that gives FREE integration of massive amounts of land (can vary if Aragon invades north italy, if they take Rome, Ancona, if they integrate Naples first, etc). That PU alone propels you into Italy, giving you an easy time boosting your income.

Not only that, but Paradox adding some more minor states in the Mahgreb, including releasable Fez, means UNLIKE previous patch, Castile can gobble up North Africa (by vassalizing and feeding) without the Berber traditions +100% coring cost. Making that area incredibly easy to expand into, especially since it's virtually impossible for Castile to lose to the Arabs there, unless you are brain dead.

Next, Castile isn't just Castile. Castile is Portugal+Castile+Aragon, realistically. You can lock Portugal out of colonizing before they even colonize. No one else has this ability. This means before Portugal gets a single colony (even if they get 1 or 2, it's not a huge issue) they will be your vassal. Since Portgual is the 2nd best colonizer in the game, that means Castile is essentially 2 nations who are able to colonizing from the very start of colonization. South America and the Caribbean are 100% yours. Mexico is basically yours, unless you don't prioritize colonies properly and France/England sneak a few in there. In my experience with the patch, EVEN WITH THE DOUBLED NEW WORLD PROVINCES, you can STILL coast lock the rest of the Europeans, minus Canada. Canada, and maybe 3-4 Caribbean islands are the only places you will not colonize first, but it's irrelevant since it's incredibly easy to take them and just give them to your colonial nations. In my last Spain game I was able to almost get 100% of the US. The only place missing was a small, small amount of Vermont/Maine area in the north, which was easily feed-able to my nation. The only colonizing area you can't secure are the Islands in South East Asia, simply because there are so many. However you can secure Australia 100%, Philippines, and most of the important larger islands you can colonize.

All of this along with marriage+alliance with France for 100% of the game. On top of that, although unlikely, you can luck into inhereting burgundy. My previous game I got a PU because they took my Dynasty, oddly enough. This was followed SHORTLY after by Austria falling into a PU with me, and much much later I enforced a PU with France and Venice, making anything France managed to colonize mine anyway.

No one seems to touch West Africa, so by the time you are ready to move into there you can have the increased Admin Efficiency and you can sweep through the entire reagon within 30-40 years.

This is all in addition to taking over any nations in South East Asia, India, Arabia, etc through out the game.

Pics for reference. Note that in this France, Portugal, Brittany, Flanders, the Pope, and Venice are all under my rule. France and Venice in a PU, the rest are vassals.
mamDYfz.jpg
LM8atOw.jpg


I would argue Spain is most capable of World conquest. With the right ideas your economy will skyrocket, and your military will be unstoppable. Their national idea's give 5 discipline, and 15% morale. You can instantly convert anything with religious ideas, no matter how many provinces you take so your nation is incredibly stable throughout the entire game. You can just spam the Papacy for 1% mercantilism all the time because of Spains +2 papal influence. While the rest of Europe is pissing on each other, Spain just fucks off to the rest of the world and uses their alliance with France as a buffer. No threats to them what-so-ever.


This is all without a single coalition forming. Spain is the only major nation in the game, bar maybe england, who can form an empire this size without getting a coalition against them. France is obscenely better at the start, but 1 province into the HRE and they have no where to expand. As well as relying on heavy luck to inherit burgundy, and a TERRIBLE Navy that prevents them from really going against england very easily. Spain+Portugal in 1500 can easily hold off a player France. Plus, their end node is garbage, and since England, Spain, and Portugal are infinitely better colonizers/naval powers, goodluck getting trade back from the new world. France is heavily overrated simply because of their armies. Admittedly Ai france rarely, if ever, falls, and a war against them early is borderline impossible to win, but if you are a nation that is really going up against france, just take quantity and quality and call them a day. They can't expand fast enough to outscale you on manpower and force limits because of their Aggressive Expansion problems in the HRE.

You cut out the date in the picture so soz i'm going to call cheats on that.(Not that it isn't actually possible)
 

dstarsboy

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Why is anyone arguing against Austria being #2? Even in the AI hands they have the highest force limit once Burgundy splits and they last MUCH longer since they don't take war leader on HRE defense calls anymore. In player hands, with the 3 PU missions, Austria is a beast.

The only position worth arguing about is #3, which I would give to England over Denmark, Castille and Ottomans simply because of the trade changes but all 4 are very viable.
 

Red John

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You cut out the date in the picture so soz i'm going to call cheats on that.(Not that it isn't actually possible)

Ehh, not really. The world has developed enough that I believe the screenshot, and it isn't all that hard to do what he's done.
 

Zqrfmb

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Clearly, Ryukyu should be #1, followed by Albania

But in all seriousness, I think songhai and ethiopia deserve a place on the list, the former can pretty easily expand into any part of africa but the cape of good hope, and can get the timbuktu golden age (I was westernized by the time it happened to me, so that was extra fun). The latter also has some good routes of expansion and got muslim tech. Plus dem elephants and triangle trade slaves and dyes (as songhai) are good for income.
 

BoleslavLev

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Byzantine empire! In my game Ottomans were doing well - then they joined protestant league while the rest of the Europe joined catholic league - they didn´t end up well. :D
 

ChildeR

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Impossible to rank without an objective criterion. Easiest to WC is different than e.g. largest in 1500 or most score by the end. SP and MP are also different balance wise.

Still, the ones in the running are Austria, Burgundy, Castille, England, Muscovy and Ottomans. Not in that order, obviously. I'd say the first four are pretty similar in that with a good start you'll soon dominate Europe and be without threats, whereas the latter two just have a lot of room for easy expansion. Which is easiest depends on whether you are playing SP or MP, and personal preference, but I think #2 is one of the western powers.
 

dstarsboy

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I don't know why people keep saying Ottomans are the best. In my 2 games as them, I felt like they were inferior.

In one game, I expanded east and took essentially most of the world but when I tried to go against Austria and the HRE after the midpoint of the game, I felt like garbage! I had twice the force limit and manpower and would fight 10 year wars and barely eek out enough war score to take a couple of provinces. I was clearly inferior.

Next time, i went orthodox and expanded west instead, beat down Austria and started working my way to take over the HRE. France came knocking and stomped me, again, even though I had twice the man power and force limit.

Even though I "technically" was the most powerful nation, I didn't feel powerful at all.

Which is why I wouldn't rank Ottomans higher than 4th. I faired better with a 50% cavalry commonwealth or even Russia.

1) France (no question)
2) Austria (no question)
3) England (very rich and defensible)
4) Denmark (only ahead of Poland because they're western)
5) Poland (50% cav = god-like... basically Eastern Prussia!)
6) Ottomans (easy expansion but non-western)
7) Moscovy (same as above but without wealthy trade nodes)
 

FloatingOrb

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My problem with Austria is that they can not expand as quickly as other nations and thier ideas are sort of meh. If you manage to get a few HRE reforms and your vassal eating machine going your set, but until then I think Austria is behind France and spain. I put it on level with the ottos though.

I have never been that impressed with the ottomans. Sure they rock early, but I feel they fall off by the mid 1500s. Maybe I have stomped them as venice (in mp games) too many times.
 

TheMeInTeam

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My problem with Austria is that they can not expand as quickly as other nations and thier ideas are sort of meh. If you manage to get a few HRE reforms and your vassal eating machine going your set, but until then I think Austria is behind France and spain. I put it on level with the ottos though.

I have never been that impressed with the ottomans. Sure they rock early, but I feel they fall off by the mid 1500s. Maybe I have stomped them as venice (in mp games) too many times.

Ottoman units are equal or better than western in pips (though only marginally) until tech 19. That's a lot later than the mid 1500's. The 25% tech penalty is of little consequence other than the inability to protectorate Asia for pure WC. If you avoid the Janissary penalties (either not getting the events or better via a silly tag switch) your tech doesn't get more expensive and you can keep up easily + get admin efficiency. They're also positioned well to blithely ignore all religious problems due to heathen tolerance (you'll sit at +3 there, and default to +1 heretic tolerance...but you can mostly destroy the tough heresies via vassal feeding anyway regardless of Orthodox or Sunni...and Christians can do the indulgences and get to +2 even if you stay Orthodox).

I can't imagine why you'd be struggling against the western nations, especially if you get into their face early and have at least one or two decent military ideas.

My problem with Austria is that they can not expand as quickly as other nations and thier ideas are sort of meh. If you manage to get a few HRE reforms and your vassal eating machine going your set, but until then I think Austria is behind France and spain. I put it on level with the ottos though.

Austria's biggest advantage by a margin is rush revoke. As anybody else, you have to vassal electors and take over emperor if you're in that region. That means waiting a few decades for Austria's ruler to die, probably with minimal IA gain. Austria has no such restriction and can start pushing reforms ASAP.