So many questions (Timurids walkthrough)

[kmh42]

Hello! I am a noob in EUIV and I don't want to spam the Quick answers thread or create multiple threads, so I ask them here.
NOTE: I don't have Cossacks, Mare Nostrum and Rights of Man DLC.
I am in a Ironman Timurid game and want to continue this. I am just ~40 years in. And I read the most wiki pages.

[Answered] Territories and states:

Spoiler: Territories and states of the Timurid's

The Timurid's start out with a mix of states and territories but are they optimal?
On which criteria do I change a province to a states or territory?
What do I get from the one or the other?

[Answered] Institutions:

Spoiler: Institutions of the Timurid's

Should I stock pile money to embrace feudalism as quick as possible?
How do I make this cheaper/faster?
Should I try to achieve the next Institutions as quick as possible?

[Answered] Development:

Spoiler: Development of the Timurid's

When should I develop provinces?
And which one?
and in which category?

[Answered] Buildings:
Same goes for buildings, I have no clue and never the money

[Answered] Embargo:
How do I react properly to an embargo from a neighboring nation?
Can an Embargo from me be beneficial for me?

More to come...

 

[inreadible]

I'll try to quick-answer some of these the best I can. I bet someone else will give better, in-depth answers soon enough. Note that I haven't played the Timurids so I might not know what's important to them.

STATES
-I believe you should make states from provinces that have accepted cultures at first. Maybe on important trade provinces too (ones that have estuaries or centers of trade).
-By making a state, you lower the potential cap of the autonomy. Which means the province will produce more of everything (trade power, manpower, money).

INSTITUTIONS
-The cost to embrace an institution is higher the more you have provinces that do not have that institution yet. So you have to examine your situation and decide whether you want to dump more money in the embracing to get it earlier and to waste less monarch points. Or can you possibly manage without buying tech for a while when you wait for the institution to spread more in your country. Essentially you don't need to embrace the institution until the technology costs get too high for you.
-It is optimal to get all institutions as soon as you can.
-When an institution has spawned anywhere in the world, you can develop a province and you can see the institution bar filling every time. So if you can dump, I believe it's around 2000 monarch points, into one province, you will get the institution there and it wil start spreading to adjacent provinces. So if an institution is very far from you, this is the optimal way of getting it.

BUILDINGS
-You can build marketplaces in important trade provinces (ones with estuaries and COTs), because those provinces have the most trade power, so the +50% or how much it is, will have the most effect.
-Temples are good in other provinces, you can see an estimation of how much income it will bring in the province when you are in the build mode. Depending on my money situation, I try to build them first in provinces where it would bring more than 0.15 income and later on I'll start building on the weaker provinces too. If I'm filthy rich, I'll just build them on almost every province.

EMBARGO
-I'm actually stupid and don't use this often, but I believe you should always embargo your rivals. If I recall correctly, it gives you some power projection which is good.
-My reaction to embargoes is usually annexing their whole country, but I try to do that to everyone anyways so..

 

[Aythne]

First, the important question you're ignoring: where are you taking the Timurids? Do you want to form the Mughals, do you want to release and play as Persia or do you want to stay a horde?

The answer to this question will greatly determine what your short- and medium-term plans should be. As a sidenote, since you're a self-professed noob, my advice is do not stay a horde. It's definitely one of the most fun you can have with this game, but dealing with the challenges (continuous expansion and finance-through-burning) is probably not recommended. Mughals and Persia are more stable empires, and as a sidenote have a lot more historical flavour than the Timurids do, so you'll get a bunch of fun events as you play.

 

[zedyue]

There are a couple times when you should develop
80% of the time: when you're near cap on that power point and have nothing else useful to spend it on
---You usually want to develop dip into good trade good / production provinces, mil into bad trade good (grain) provinces with buildings that have + manpower in them, and usually ADM you shouldn't develop with because it is used for so much other useful things (coring/ stab) but if you have to your capital is a good place / farmland
10% of the time: Open a building slot (9 development -> 10 for example)
--- rather than delete a useful building and build a new one like a fort, just pop down 65 dip and then a fort
10% of the time: roleplay or other reasons
--- increase development of a culture so you can promote it (dlc?), ???

You're probably going to be behind in tech and conquering everywhere so I can't imagine you're going to have that much surplus of ADM (cores) DIP (non-wargoal provinces) or MIL (mil tech/horde unity) (horde unity might be dlc)
You probably won't develop much

BUILDINGS

churches in high tax provinces (bigger numbers when you select the building)
marketplaces in trade node provinces (end node you collect in first)
barracks in provinces with high manpower/MIL development or places you intend to mil develop soon
+2 navy / +1 army limit literally everywhere or anywhere AS YOU NEED THEM but in worthless provinces first because GOOD provinces gain economical payback better from economic buildings, whereas a 1/1/1 province isn't good for much but boosting your army/navy limit

 

[kmh42]

I believe you should make states from provinces that have accepted cultures at first. Maybe on important trade provinces too (ones that have estuaries or centers of trade).

good to know

By making a state, you lower the potential cap of the autonomy. Which means the province will produce more of everything (trade power, manpower, money).

so, in short: more states is better.

The cost to embrace an institution is higher the more you have provinces that do not have that institution yet. So you have to examine your situation and decide whether you want to dump more money in the embracing to get it earlier and to waste less monarch points. Or can you possibly manage without buying tech for a while when you wait for the institution to spread more in your country. Essentially you don't need to embrace the institution until the technology costs get too high for you.

The question is if I pay with a sh*t load of money now or many monarch points over time, right?

It is optimal to get all institutions as soon as you can.

The problem I have is the balance where I should spend my Monarch points/money on. There is some much to spend on: war, vassalization, development, events, revolts, buildings... .

When an institution has spawned anywhere in the world, you can develop a province and you can see the institution bar filling every time. So if you can dump, I believe it's around 2000 monarch points, into one province, you will get the institution there and it wil start spreading to adjacent provinces. So if an institution is very far from you, this is the optimal way of getting it.

Yeah a saw a youtube video about this.

BUILDINGS
-You can build marketplaces in important trade provinces (ones with estuaries and COTs), because those provinces have the most trade power, so the +50% or how much it is, will have the most effect.
-Temples are good in other provinces, you can see an estimation of how much income it will bring in the province when you are in the build mode. Depending on my money situation, I try to build them first in provinces where it would bring more than 0.15 income and later on I'll start building on the weaker provinces too. If I'm filthy rich, I'll just build them on almost every province.

BUILDINGS

churches in high tax provinces (bigger numbers when you select the building)
marketplaces in trade node provinces (end node you collect in first)
barracks in provinces with high manpower/MIL development or places you intend to mil develop soon
+2 navy / +1 army limit literally everywhere or anywhere AS YOU NEED THEM but in worthless provinces first because GOOD provinces gain economical payback better from economic buildings, whereas a 1/1/1 province isn't good for much but boosting your army/navy limit

Should I save on those buildings some times or only build when I have the coin to spare?

-I'm actually stupid and don't use this often, but I believe you should always embargo your rivals. If I recall correctly, it gives you some power projection which is good.

Oh, I think I knew that once but forgot it. But is there any other usefully feature behind this?

First, the important question you're ignoring: where are you taking the Timurids? Do you want to form the Mughals, do you want to release and play as Persia or do you want to stay a horde?

The answer to this question will greatly determine what your short- and medium-term plans should be. As a sidenote, since you're a self-professed noob, my advice is do not stay a horde. It's definitely one of the most fun you can have with this game, but dealing with the challenges (continuous expansion and finance-through-burning) is probably not recommended. Mughals and Persia are more stable empires, and as a sidenote have a lot more historical flavour than the Timurids do, so you'll get a bunch of fun events as you play.

I followed this guide on the wiki a several times in the past and wanted to do the roughly same now. But I just want to keep playing even I don't reach my set goals or recommendations in the goal. Horde play isn't an option with lacking cossacks.

80% of the time: when you're near cap on that power point and have nothing else useful to spend

??? technology, vassalization, revolts, events,... I always have something to spend them on.

10% of the time: Open a building slot (9 development -> 10 for example)
--- rather than delete a useful building and build a new one like a fort, just pop down 65 dip and then a fort

This sound more of a mid or late game thing.

You're probably going to be behind in tech and conquering everywhere so I can't imagine you're going to have that much surplus of ADM (cores) DIP (non-wargoal provinces) or MIL (mil tech/horde unity) (horde unity might be dlc)
You probably won't develop much

Maybe it isn't so usefull anyway when I going to form mughals and have my capital somewhere else.

 

[zedyue]

most of the time developing is for western nations crammed into the HRE who don't have room to expand and easily hit points cap
as timurids I'd be suprised if you ever do

 

[inreadible]

so, in short: more states is better.

Pretty much, yeah. But there is a limit of how many states you can have, so you might not want to make everything as states immediately because maybe you want to make a state out of a place you haven't conquered yet.

The question is if I pay with a sh*t load of money now or many monarch points over time, right?

That's about it. If an institution has spread enough in my country and I have the money to embrace it, I usually do it immediately. Unless I am already ahead of time in all technologies, then I might wait until the institution spreads a bit more and embrace it just before buying next techs. Money is usually much less valuable than monarch points.

The problem I have is the balance where I should spend my Monarch points/money on. There is some much to spend on: war, vassalization, development, events, revolts, buildings... .

This depends so much on your goals in the game.

Should I save on those buildings some times or only build when I have the coin to spare?

I try to avoid stockpiling alot of money especially in the start of the game, so if I have money in the hundreds, I tend to buy a temple. Of course if you know that soon you must embrace an institution or are going to start a possibly expensive war, that's the time to save a bit more money on hand.

Oh, I think I knew that once but forgot it. But is there any other usefully feature behind this?

I guess it's useful that the rival who you are embargoing gets reduced trade power in the nodes you both have trade power. So you are kind of hurting your competition without having to go to war.

 

[Heindrich]

Props on having the courage and patience to Ironman Timurids as an EUIV noob, and actually taking the time to research and learn as you play. You certainly didn't make life easy for yourself.

You don't have Cossacks? That DLC feels nearly essential for horde factions at this point to be honest, and even for everyone else, the Diplomatic Feedback system is really nice for planning grand strategy and managing diplomacy.

Regarding embargoes, you should always embargo your rivals, there are no downsides for you and it weakens your rivals' trade power a bit. Just make sure to stop embargoes after a rival stops being a rival, because then there is a downside (to your trade power iirc).

Regarding buildings, if you build from the construction menu on the top-left, it should display the benefit of the buildings on a provincial basis on the map. This allows you to quickly gauge whether building something is worth it. For example if you select Church and it costs 100 ducats, and gives you +0.20 in a province, that means you will get 2.4 per year, which means you'll get your money back in ~42 years.

Regarding development. As a non-European country, it's basically not worth it except to develop provinces for the specific goal of acquiring institutions. However you are the Timurids, you could expand westwards fairly easily if you so wish. You can acquire Institutions by conquering provinces that already have them.

Regarding States, keep an eye on your State limit, prioritize high value states. If you are about to conquer a rich region of India and you are already near your state limit, then don't make a barren region of the Steppes a State.

 

[kmh42]

most of the time developing is for western nations crammed into the HRE who don't have room to expand and easily hit points cap
as timurids I'd be suprised if you ever do

As a non-European country, it's basically not worth it except to develop provinces for the specific goal of acquiring institutions. However you are the Timurids, you could expand westwards fairly easily if you so wish.

Oh ok. I got this impression already from youtube videos and wiki but wasn't sure.

Pretty much, yeah. But there is a limit of how many states you can have, so you might not want to make everything as states immediately because maybe you want to make a state out of a place you haven't conquered yet.

I just can un-state a province some why is the point in not stating something?

That's about it. If an institution has spread enough in my country and I have the money to embrace it, I usually do it immediately. Unless I am already ahead of time in all technologies, then I might wait until the institution spreads a bit more and embrace it just before buying next techs. Money is usually much less valuable than monarch points.

Ok, so I wait till I can easy buy it and don't mind for them till I want to be the center of technology in the world

This depends so much on your goals in the game.

This is where experience comes in, I guess.

I try to avoid stockpiling alot of money especially in the start of the game, so if I have money in the hundreds, I tend to buy a temple. Of course if you know that soon you must embrace an institution or are going to start a possibly expensive war, that's the time to save a bit more money on hand.

Since manual developing provinces is not worth the hassle when moving into India I will not build many buildings ether.

I guess it's useful that the rival who you are embargoing gets reduced trade power in the nodes you both have trade power. So you are kind of hurting your competition without having to go to war.

Regarding embargoes, you should always embargo your rivals, there are no downsides for you and it weakens your rivals' trade power a bit. Just make sure to stop embargoes after a rival stops being a rival, because then there is a downside (to your trade power iirc).

Ok thx. That means when someone is embargoing me, he set me as a rival? And there is not much to do about it when he is not my rival.

Props on having the courage and patience to Ironman Timurids as an EUIV noob, and actually taking the time to research and learn as you play. You certainly didn't make life easy for yourself.

I play EUIV once every three or four month, every time I get bored of CK2. I played many Portugal games and some Timurid's game with the help of the wiki. I even managed to get a huge Mughal Empire in a non ironman savegame so I feel more save with the Timurid's then most other nations.

You don't have Cossacks? That DLC feels nearly essential for horde factions at this point to be honest, and even for everyone else, the Diplomatic Feedback system is really nice for planning grand strategy and managing diplomacy.

I waited for this statement to come up . Since I play so little EUIV I am not up to date with the DLCs. They are on my wish list for the steam winter sale. But I fear they add more feature which I don't understand.

Regarding buildings, if you build from the construction menu on the top-left, it should display the benefit of the buildings on a provincial basis on the map. This allows you to quickly gauge whether building something is worth it. For example if you select Church and it costs 100 ducats, and gives you +0.20 in a province, that means you will get 2.4 per year, which means you'll get your money back in ~42 years.

good to know

Regarding States, keep an eye on your State limit, prioritize high value states. If you are about to conquer a rich region of India and you are already near your state limit, then don't make a barren region of the Steppes a State.

So this setup is not optimal?:

Spoiler

Should I make Tabaristan a state?

 

[Susanna]

I'm pretty sure you don't get a refund for un-stating, for one thing.

 

[inreadible]

I just can un-state a province some why is the point in not stating something?

Coring a province in a territory costs only 50% of the admin power cost. Turning it into a state, costs the rest 50%. So some poor places might be better left territories. Also, I'm pretty sure when I turned a state to a territory the game warned me that if I make it a state again, I will have to pay the 50% admin power coring AGAIN. Haven't turned any states to territories since.

Ok thx. That means when someone is embargoing me, he set me as a rival? And there is not much to do about it when he is not my rival.

I can't say for sure, but embargoing someone who's NOT your rival has penalties to you too. So it's almost certain the AI won't embargo you if they are not rivaling you too.

 

[kmh42]

I'm pretty sure you don't get a refund for un-stating, for one thing.

Coring a province in a territory costs only 50% of the admin power cost. Turning it into a state, costs the rest 50%. So some poor places might be better left territories. Also, I'm pretty sure when I turned a state to a territory the game warned me that if I make it a state again, I will have to pay the 50% admin power coring AGAIN. Haven't turned any states to territories since.

So it's no worth it to un-state a cored province if an richer one is a territory.

 

[Threshold]

I'm pretty sure you don't get a refund for un-stating, for one thing.

This is correct; you get no adm point refund for state cores you've already made, when you turn a province back into a territory.

Coring a province in a territory costs only 50% of the admin power cost. Turning it into a state, costs the rest 50%. So some poor places might be better left territories. Also, I'm pretty sure when I turned a state to a territory the game warned me that if I make it a state again, I will have to pay the 50% admin power coring AGAIN. Haven't turned any states to territories since.


I can't say for sure, but embargoing someone who's NOT your rival has penalties to you too. So it's almost certain the AI won't embargo you if they are not rivaling you too.

Correct on territorial and state core costs. Incorrect that turning an area into a state costs adm: It is the state cores themselves that cost the other adm. While they do count as "stated" land for almost all purposes, and hence your estates will be mad if you don't give them enough land, and you of course can't give them any of it because it's not state cored (but that's a Cossacks-only feature so no worries there for now), it is perfectly reasonable to leave them as territorial cores in states; the only noticeable effect will be that their minimum autonomy is 50% (instead of 0% as state core, or 75% as purely a territory).

To clarify: Don't de-state any of your starting states (and, to be on the safe side, don't state and then de-state any of the land you start with). This shouldn't be too difficult, since as @inreadible points out, the game does warn you if de-stating will cause you to lose state cores. But if you want to state some land you've conquered, to get more manpower or force limit out of it (and more tax but that's largely offset by the state maintenance), and de-state it later after you get richer land, feel free to do so.

There's a heck of a lot more in this thread for me to read over, but it looks like we forumites have done a pretty good job of answering your questions so far.

 

[Dutchman251]

It can definitely be worth it.

Moreover, take loans to instantaneously embrace feudalism. This will save you so much hassle. If you don't have any high development province where an institution is going to spawn within 10 years, it is often worth it to take loans and embrace it. And, if you're a noob, and play a horde: Don't fear going bankrupt. You'll probably go bankrupt, if you play the game right.

 

[zedyue]

Another thing, as a Horde you will get negative events for not being at war rather often. Money might be more important to spend on troops and war than buildings. Buildings are important but spend on buildings when you've got truces with most people or are recuperating. The rest of the time build troops and war.

200 cost building can take 42 years to earn back but if you build 8 horses with that money you can conquer delhi faster and have rich land making a lot more money for you.

 

[kmh42]

This is correct; you get no adm point refund for state cores you've already made, when you turn a province back into a territory.

Correct on territorial and state core costs. Incorrect that turning an area into a state costs adm: It is the state cores themselves that cost the other adm. While they do count as "stated" land for almost all purposes, and hence your estates will be mad if you don't give them enough land, and you of course can't give them any of it because it's not state cored (but that's a Cossacks-only feature so no worries there for now), it is perfectly reasonable to leave them as territorial cores in states; the only noticeable effect will be that their minimum autonomy is 50% (instead of 0% as state core, or 75% as purely a territory).

To clarify: Don't de-state any of your starting states (and, to be on the safe side, don't state and then de-state any of the land you start with). This shouldn't be too difficult, since as @inreadible points out, the game does warn you if de-stating will cause you to lose state cores. But if you want to state some land you've conquered, to get more manpower or force limit out of it (and more tax but that's largely offset by the state maintenance), and de-state it later after you get richer land, feel free to do so.

There's a heck of a lot more in this thread for me to read over, but it looks like we forumites have done a pretty good job of answering your questions so far.

It can definitely be worth it.

Ok... I play a little bit and see if I can use all this information in my game. thx

Moreover, take loans to instantaneously embrace feudalism.

I just go a notification that I can embrace it and I just did. But even I am feudal now I have 44% penalty already.

And, if you're a noob, and play a horde: Don't fear going bankrupt. You'll probably go bankrupt, if you play the game right.

I actually never got bankrupt because I mostly quit the game or loaded another save. That's why I wanna force myself to play ironman and play along even I do shit. This is how you learn CK2 and I am pretty sure this is how you learn EUIV.

Another thing, as a Horde you will get negative events for not being at war rather often

I think this is a DLC feature. I never saw this.

200 cost building can take 42 years to earn back but if you build 8 horses with that money you can conquer delhi faster and have rich land making a lot more money for you.

Currently I have trouble with wars. My targets have some allies and mine won't join me because the feel threatened. And because of ironman I don't wanna go into war which I can't surly win. I learn this lessen here.

 

[kmh42]

Actually all my initial questions were answered, thank you all for this. I keep playing and try to make use of all this new information.

 

[kmh42]

I'll reply there, but that should not be happening. Are they developing their provinces? Did you de-state a bunch of stuff?

This is definitive the case. I annexed some nation, therefore my development got bigger. But Yarkand conquered stuff too. maybe that's the thing

 

[kmh42]

But Yarkand conquered stuff too. maybe that's the thing

But Multan didn't expand

 

[kmh42]

Currently I have trouble with wars. My targets have some allies and mine won't join me because the feel threatened. And because of ironman I don't wanna go into war which I can't surly win. I learn this lessen here.

I learn nothing ... I attacked Sind when they were at war and was thinking I can pull this off, but my Infantry regiment was wiped right away and my horse stacks arn't enough. I think it's time for some loans... stupid me.
EDIT:
I had to release four nations ... ouch.

At least my allies joint in while at war. Don't know why. Maybe because I was loosing?