So many questions (Portugal walkthrough)

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kmh42

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Hello, like in this thread I seek answers for question I come across my Portugal playthrough. Portugal is a hole different game then the Timurid's so many new questions arise.
NOTE: I don't have Rights of Man DLC. I play ironman.
Situation:
I am doing very well because I played this campaign very often but I often fail in the late game. I am allied to Spain and want to keeps this. Sus is my vassal and Morocco is soon to be conquered. Tunis is allied with the Ottomans, so there is not much to gain. Colonialism spawned at my capital and I am doing well with technology.
My plans are to Colonize as much as possible and don't interfere much in European politics, except I have to.
20161127125500_1.jpg

Protect Trade:
I have 12 Barques which I patrolling Safi earning me 3.34 gold. I have diplo-lvl 11.
20161127124124_1.jpg
Should I distribute them to other Trade Nodes?
Should I upgrade those ships? Would cost me 280 gold.

Estates:
I just bought Cossacks and not entirely sure if I use the estate feature correctly. I try not to get low loyalty and too high influence but this is rather boring.
20161127130200_1.jpg
Do I miss something interesting in this feature
What provinces is best to give what estate?

Mid and Late Game:
I manage to conquer parts of Northern Africa and build up many Colonies in West and South Africa and Caribbean region but in the moment other European nation start colonizing I get in trouble. England and France often have more troops and ships than me and I lose the oversight in wars.
How do I prepare for this?
How not to lose the oversight in Atlantic wide wars?

Government:
Should I switch to a specific Government?
And why?

More to come...
 

Tom D.

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I manage to conquer parts of Northern Africa and build up many Colonies in West and South Africa and Caribbean region but in the
I think it's important to note that if you go further east than the Cape it's important to own Zanzibar and Cape, as dominating these nodes ensure you're trade income. If not, Ivory Coast and Sevilla are definitely necessary.

How not to lose the oversight in Atlantic wide wars?
I think a big navy of heavies are necessary to ensure the armies of both can't reach your colonies. That's what I can think of for now for advice.
 
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Susanna

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Use the Treaty of Tordesillas to your advantage - get the colonial nations (in Caribbean and Brazil, certainly; further north the trade goes the wrong way) first, and then let them colonize as well - presuming you are remaining Catholic (this will substantially slow down other Catholic colonizers in the area). If you get a CN up to ten provinces (and you can help), they'll provide you with an additional merchant.

If I state any territory in Africa, it's at the Cape; the rest I give to the trade companies.

Build more light ships as you can afford them (and I believe each level carries more trade weight than the previous), and check where they can do the most good for you before you send them out - that information will be in a tool tip by each COT you can send them to, when you're sending them.

Build marketplaces, especially in your home trade node at Sevilla. What is your percentage there? You need to dominate your home node.

Which ideas have you taken?
 

Sfan

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You need to protect trade in Sevilla instead if you want to stay allied with Spain.
Right now you do not earn 3.34 in Safi, you just steer 3.34 from Safi to Sevilla and half of this is taken by Spain.

The optimal strategy, if France and Spain are not allied, is however to rival England and Spain, ally France, and use France to take Spain and the Spanish and English colonies. But you can play it safer and more historical.

You need to colonize everything that can come into Sevilla so ignore NA and focus on central and southern americas.
In Africa, only centers of trade and estuaries are worth early on, there are so many natives. Indonesia is a much better location to colonize instead.

You should not get engaged in wars in Europe early on if you ally Spain, especially if Spain allied France. (if they rivalled each other dumping Spain for France is really better because France is a stronger ally and the Spanish land is better for you). Don't build forts or a warfleet if you want to play it peacefully. Use your money to run 1-2 colonies over your colonial limit instead.
Once you are rich out of your colonies, build 20 heavies and you rule the waves.
This does not matter however if your ennemies invade your colonies, it gives little warscore. If your alliance is stronger in Europe siege their homeland and you win the war despite all of Brazil being occupied.

You should switch for Administrative Monarchy if you don't do wars in Europe because the bonuses you start with are only about war. Going for Constitutional Monarchy later on can be good. If you do wars, stay with it until you can get an absolute monarchy because it is the best for wars.
 
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kmh42

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I think it's important to note that if you go further east than the Cape it's important to own Zanzibar and Cape, as dominating these nodes ensure you're trade income. If not, Ivory Coast and Sevilla are definitely necessary.
These are my colonies right now: Ivory Coast (2 provinces), Cape of good hope (2 provinces) and canaries islands (4 provinces). I have nothing in Brazil
20161127200326_1.jpg
20161127200340_1.jpg
20161127200322_1.jpg
20161127200348_1.jpg
I think a big navy of heavies are necessary to ensure the armies of both can't reach your colonies. That's what I can think of for now for advice.
My navy consist out of 14 Barques (Protecting trade in Safi), 12 Cogs, 4 Early Carracks (Hunting Pirates and Raiders) and 7 Carracks.
Use the Treaty of Tordesillas to your advantage
Brazil is claimed by Spain
further north the trade goes the wrong way
You need to colonize everything that can come into Sevilla so ignore NA and focus on central and southern americas.
NA is irrelevant I know.
presuming you are remaining Catholic
I will stay Catholic and right now France, England and Spain are Catholic too.
If you get a CN up to ten provinces (and you can help), they'll provide you with an additional merchant.
I know that
If I state any territory in Africa, it's at the Cape; the rest I give to the trade companies.
I give all my African colonies to a TC. Should I revoke the Cape?
and check where they can do the most good for you before you send them out - that information will be in a tool tip by each COT you can send them to, when you're sending them.
It say always Safi.
uild marketplaces, especially in your home trade node at Sevilla
I already buildone in Lisabon, Tangiers, Cape of good Hope and Gold Coast
What is your percentage there? You need to dominate your home node.
I have 45% and Spain has 44%
You need to protect trade in Sevilla instead if you want to stay allied with Spain.
Right now you do not earn 3.34 in Safi, you just steer 3.34 from Safi to Sevilla and half of this is taken by Spain.
Oh Ok, so all Light ships should go there? Or should I just simple collect in Safi?
The optimal strategy, if France and Spain are not allied, is however to rival England and Spain, ally France, and use France to take Spain and the Spanish and English colonies. But you can play it safer and more historical.
I am allies with Spain and rivaled with France and England, same goes for Spain. England and France are rivaled too.
if they rivalled each other dumping Spain for France is really better because France is a stronger ally and the Spanish land is better for you
France doesn't look so healthy:
20161127202605_1.jpg
This does not matter however if your ennemies invade your colonies, it gives little warscore. If your alliance is stronger in Europe siege their homeland and you win the war despite all of Brazil being occupied.
good to know.
ou should switch for Administrative Monarchy if you don't do wars in Europe because the bonuses you start with are only about war. Going for Constitutional Monarchy later on can be good. If you do wars, stay with it until you can get an absolute monarchy because it is the best for wars.
good to know
Thx all. I am in a war now. I hope I can survive this.
20161127203011_1.jpg
 
I

indika_tates

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Portugal is in a very bad shape nowadays. This game has changed so much to the point where colonization is simply not worth it anymore. Colonial nations LD is on rampage. Mercantilism? +LD. Relative power to overlord? +LD. Tariffs? +LD. War exhaustion? +LD.

As Portugal don't expect to have a big army enough to keep your colonial nations calm. Even with quantity ideas you have nothing to do about it. The lack of any military ideas & manpower is a huge disadvantage when fighting on Asia because as soon as you start conquering territories institutions will spread to them quickly. Mercantilism is not needed for the new world but definitively it's for India/Asia. Conquering harbors is not enough to drain trade power to Seville and light ships trade power is nerfed into the ground. So in the long run you have a weak nation, with weak ideas unable to maintain LD of your colonies under control and without any kind of military advantage against your neighbors which other colonizers have.

Having Castille as an ally is both a gift and a curse. You will be often involved in European wars you want to avoid, but you are going to suffer France sooner or later and that's a pain for your tiny army. So my suggestion is that if you want to play a colonization game, go for a big power. England is the easiest one if you abandon France because no one is going to disembark in your island-fortress.

It's actually not a Portugal problem, because patches ago it was one of my favourite nations to play with, but the recent changes have made the colonization simply not worth the reward you get for your colonies and trade companies. On top of this, berbers raid your coasts constantly and you are forced to landlock them having to core useless provinces that worth nothing to avoid the irritating raids.

Since you share your "virtual" end node of Seville with Spain, about 40% or 50% of your trade income is wasted unless you collect from trade in Asia/India which is a horrible option because the malus you get (-50%) from collecting outside of your main node.

Bad times for colonizers, sure.
 
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kmh42

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Portugal is in a very bad shape nowadays. This game has changed so much to the point where colonization is simply not worth it anymore. Colonial nations LD is on rampage. Mercantilism? +LD. Relative power to overlord? +LD. Tariffs? +LD. War exhaustion? +LD.

As Portugal don't expect to have a big army enough to keep your colonial nations calm. Even with quantity ideas you have nothing to do about it. The lack of any military ideas & manpower is a huge disadvantage when fighting on Asia because as soon as you start conquering territories institutions will spread to them quickly. Mercantilism is not needed for the new world but definitively it's for India/Asia. Conquering harbors is not enough to drain trade power to Seville and light ships trade power is nerfed into the ground. So in the long run you have a weak nation, with weak ideas unable to maintain LD of your colonies under control and without any kind of military advantage against your neighbors which other colonizers have.

Having Castille as an ally is both a gift and a curse. You will be often involved in European wars you want to avoid, but you are going to suffer France sooner or later and that's a pain for your tiny army. So my suggestion is that if you want to play a colonization game, go for a big power. England is the easiest one if you abandon France because no one is going to disembark in your island-fortress.

It's actually not a Portugal problem, because patches ago it was one of my favourite nations to play with, but the recent changes have made the colonization simply not worth the reward you get for your colonies and trade companies. On top of this, berbers raid your coasts constantly and you are forced to landlock them having to core useless provinces that worth nothing to avoid the irritating raids.

Since you share your "virtual" end node of Seville with Spain, about 40% or 50% of your trade income is wasted unless you collect from trade in Asia/India which is a horrible option because the malus you get (-50%) from collecting outside of your main node.

Bad times for colonizers, sure.
I really want to love EUIV because I love CK2 and I know and see the potential of it but I only play it every three months for about 2 week. In these 3 month, so much is changing that I cannot follow it, like I do with CK2. It is just too time consuming. So many little this change which have a huge impact of a playthrough with a particular nation. The wiki is constant outdated (like all Paradox wikis I assume) and the game provides so little information that so many thing stay unclear. This is frustrating. And the most frustrating part is; I do this since 2 years now. Play, fail, restart, fail again, go onto the forums, play one good game till something bad happens and get frustrated and switch to CK2 because I am invincible there. My Ego is not ready for this game.
 

Sfan

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Ok, you need much more infos then.

Trade :
First, do NOT check the tooltips about trade, they are always wrong and useless. Instead, try and see how it goes. Move a merchant somewhere and see if you make more next month. Collect somewhere instead of steering and see if you make more. The more you play, the better you will be at guessing this without having to try.

There are several things that are always true however. If a coastal tradenode goes in only one direction, this is useless to have a merchant in there if he can be somewhere else, because you will automatically steer trade and a merchant will only give you +2TP. In an inland tradenode like Champagne this is worth it because you get around 50TP from the "caravan". If a tradenode steers in different directions, like Ivory Coast, you have to have a merchant there. The tooltips are bugged. They say something like "steering 10 ducats towards Sevilla" while it is actually steering an equal number of ducats towards every reachable node unless you have a merchant to direct trade, so 2.50 towars English Channel, Bordeaux, Caribbean and Sevilla in such a situation. However, if you have a merchant steering in Safi, he is useless since the difference is the difference between 4 ducats and 3.9 ducats steered towards Sevilla. Am I being clear?

However, this can obviously be worth it to collect in a tradenode like Safi. This depends on your number of merchants, your tradepower in Sevilla and in every other tradenode where you have a significant power, and the ratio between your TP in Sevilla and the total TP in Sevilla. You can theorycraft it by using a formula, or just try, as I said. This takes only 2 months for everything to be set up and you can see if there is any significant difference. I don't know if you are familiar with the basic concept behind collecting out of your homenode: you get -50% tradepower there, which is a big deal if this is a big node where you had 40% or something, but is insignificant if this is a smaller node where you had 90%. You also lose the transfer bonus in Sevilla, and this can be very meaningful. If you have a lot of merchants steering trade all around the map in a global trade empire, you can have over +100% in your homenode, this is insanely strong to monopolize it without attacking Spain. You renounce all of this by collecting in Safi.

The basic idea is usually to abandon the idea of steering completely once you start collecting elsewhere, because the transfer bonus is lost anyway. So if you collect in Safi, collect in every valuable tradenode. There are a few exceptions to this, if you can get some "almost endnodes" like Zanzibar/The Cape with a very high tradepower, you could have a strategy where you steer trade from everywhere in Asia towards them, collect there, and collect in Sevilla as well to have the American money. This is optimal if you have 0 control over the Ivory Coast, but this is not your situation at all. Worth mentioning though.

In a nutshell, 90% of the time this is best to either steer everywhere towards your homenode, or collect everywhere around the globe, but not do a little bit of both. In your situation, you have a low control of Sevilla and probably a high control of Safi, so right now this is probably better to collect in Safi, but in the long term this is probably better to steer everything towards Sevilla to get as much control of the node as possible thanks to the transfer bonus, and to make it the most valuable tradenode of the game. This is even more important in 1.18 because this guarantees the fact you spawn Global Trade.

Navy/Economy:

You have far too many heavies right now imo. Heavy ships are extremely expensive and not that useful in an early SP game. Especially if you are allied with Spain, they can provide a lot of heavies themselves. Just check the war screen there. Your side has 23 heavies, their side has 3 heavies. DO not sink your heavies, but leave them mothballed. They are a budget hole early game, and having a good budget early game is so important because your early benefit gets snowballed over the game. Having more money very early game means more lightships and more churches and workshops, so more money at lvl 11, so more manufactories, so even more money lategame. This is why this is usually better to have 0 heavy and 0 fort very early game. It's not that they are useless, it's just that not having them early allows you to have more of them lategame.

You say you use your heavies to protect yourself against pirates. You can use lightships for this as well. This is poorly explained but they will give you tradepower as well when they protect you against pirates. And maintaining a huge fleet of heavies costs more than what the pirates take away from you, usually. Overall, you should have a much bigger tradefleet imo. Here this is better to do the math, because you can't build the ships and destroy them later without a huge cost, so you better be sure before building them. So here is the idea. Early game, a tradeship costs 0.04 per month and costs 20 ducats. It makes money if the 2TP it gives you in the node it collects in allow you to have more than 0.04 ducats more per month. I would need a screenshot of Sevilla to explain it to you with precise numbers, but this should be super worth it to protect trade there. If you win 0.06 ducats per month per light ship, then the lightsip is as good as a church that would give you 0.10 per month, which is considered the base from which you should build them in a normal situation. Light ships are overall the same, they are useful in wars as well, but they can be destroyed, but they can also capture ships, so overall this is about the same thing. Early game, before you have a lot of heavies, simply mothball your tradefleet if it is in a dangerous war. This one is not dangerous because your side has an overwhelming naval supremacy. If you win 0.08 ducats per month per light ship, then the lightsip is as good as a church that would give you 0.20 per month, which is massive. This is possible that your ships would grant you even more, I would need a screenshot of the Sevilla tradenode to do the calculation.

You are allied with Spain, this means you have a huge meatshield, but also means that noone will want your land because no ennemy neighbours you. This is why Portugal is considered the best country for beginners, you cannot lose land of the entire game if you are friendly with Spain. Even if you are fully occupied they will only ask money, and breaking alliance with Spain. This means you should not be affraid of losing a war, and should not overcommit in them. Protect Spain if they are your ally because you don't want France to invade them totally and destroy them, but abandon your country or separate peace if you are losing the war, there is no problem in that because you will only lose money, and that would cost you more money to fight the war. That's also why you should not have forts imo, they are taking a lot of money from you for nothing right now because all the fighting happens in Spain. The best way to have a massive economy lategame is to reduce the costs to a minimum early game. Your budget should not be balanced. It should be heavily in benefit, so that you can build buildings to have even more money later and so on. This money is used to run several colonies at a time, to spam mercs and conscription centers. This way, even Portugal can match France from midgame, and you can have one of the higher forcelimits lategame. If you use forts and heavies early, there is no chance you can do this.

Diplomacy :

I guess France rivalled you. That's sad because that's too late to turn things around and betray Spain. But you say your France isn't impressive. It did not blob, but it is a lot stronger that Spain, or that any country in the world actually, except maybe the Ottos. Heck, you are allied with Spain and you seem to say that France wins. Imagine if you were on France's side... Here you condemned yourself to never having a full control of Sevilla. If you play another Portuguese game and do the opposite, ally France and kick Spain, you have a full control of Sevilla for free so your ships can do something else and you make a lot more money. Spain has no PU on Naples either, so they are weak and they will never expand because they neighbor only France and you. They will eventually be more of a problem that an helping hand. That gives some challenge though. Try allying Austria then, especially if they kept the emperorship, they will protect you and they usually don't do suicide offensive wars in which they call you. Spain is usually a pretty weak ally lategame but I guess you have no choice but keeping it now.

Wars :

Always be on time with military techs. This should not be hard because you are a western country and military points are not really useful for anything but teching. There are ideas of course, just be careful not to dump every points in them instead of teching, techs are better that ideas usually. Only develop if you have no tech and no idea to take.

What is the composition of your stacks, and which military tech are you at?

The optimal stack is something like 12-4 before level 7, 12-4-4, 12-4-6 or 12-4-8 after cannons depending on your income, but usually 12-4-4/6 early and 12-4-6/8 after level 13, when artillery becomes a thing. If you have money issues, be at a minimum number of 2 art pre13. I usually go with 16-4-10 around level 18 with the increased combat width but this depend on your income. You slowly increase artillery and reduce cavalry after that to end up with something like 20-4-20 lategame, or even 20-0-20 depending on point of views. Level 22 is the real turning point for artillery from which it becomes insanely good and level 25 is even more good. The idea is that you should have a full combat width made of infantry and some cav to flank, and gradually have a full backrow of artillery, ideally a full backrow of artillery from level 22 or 25. This is always good to have more artillery if you can afford it, it's just that artillery is not that good pre-13 and very expensive. It is OK between 13 and 22, strong post 22 and godlike post 25. Artillery can fire from the backrow as you may know but it takes heavy casualties when fighting in the frontrow. The lategame strat is to have the maximum number of artillery, and to protect them as much as you can with mostly infantry in the frontrow.

Apart from that, consolidate your stacks before every battle. Shift consolidate allows you to consolidate without losing regiments. This is more expensive in the short term and less expensive in the long term. Always have a general leading your army. Be careful with terrain. Engage with one stack and reinforce the battle gradually with the other stacks, because if you engage with 4 stacks, 3 of them cannot fight but they still take morale damage. And apart from that there is not much to say. Your troops will be weaker that France's or Prussia's anyway, except if you stack ideas. Lategame, you have western units so you crush everyone not western, even militaristic nations like the Ottomans. But money should win the wars as Portugal, not quality.

Colonization:

Colonization is not that strong right now, but this is still a good way of becoming stronger when your neighbours are stronger than you. This is the historical situation of Portugal and Netherlands for instance. There are several things to consider when deciding where to colonize.

First, and you seem familiar with this, mostly colonize if you can transfer trade towards your homenode. That's why NA is not that important as Portugal, but the Caribbean, South America or Africa are most important. There is an exception if you have a small kingdom and you can reach Indonesia and the Spice Islands. Even without steering trade, the production value of these colonies if you can state them is worth it.

Pretty obviously prefer provinces with high development, but also provinces with good potential tradegoods. There is a bonus for colonies neighbouring each other so try to have colonies neighbouring each other. Also prioritize provinces without a lot of natives or with natives not ferocious because as Portugal you should go for native repression policy; this helps you immensely and you can divert an army there to protect your colonies without much harm because Portugal is safe from ennemy aggression. Use this same army to smash native nations.
The best provinces are thus the Cape, Ile Bourbon and Mauritius, and the Caribbean. Chose provinces that give you access to native nations, they are the easier way to expand. All of this being said, La Plata is not key at all for instance, and the northern coast of Brazil as well. The Eastern coast of Brazil, the Caribbean and Western Colombia are all good however.

The AI usually colonizes at a predictible pace and in a predictible order. Brazil is one of the first regions to be colonized, the Caribbean as well. They should be your priority. At least a few provinces of Brazil because the Caribbean Islands are more important. The AI usually don't bother with Africa until the late 16th century so you can ignore Africa as well, this is a waste of opportunities. The colonies there are also not good at all apart from centers of trades. They are slow to grow because of climate, there are a lot of natives and they are usually low development. The provinces with a lot of trade power are the only useful ones in Western Africa, let Castile or France lose time colonizing the rest of them. Jump to the Cape and Swellendam, for neighbour colonies bonus, and because you don't need any army there because of unferocious natives. Go for Ile Bourbon and Mauritius to take these good provinces and block other colonizers, and go back to colonizing the Americas. When someone starts colonizing southern Africa or St Helena, go for Indonesia, this means they will be there in 10-20 years but with native repression policy you can completely outpace them.


Edit :
Portugal is playable. Really. Especially if you kill Spain. But even without killing Spain. There are no problems with managing colonial nations right now, it's the easiest it has ever been because you can develop their provinces and reduce their LD. This is not a RoM feature if I'm not wrong. Anyway, CN in the Americas are good, but the Spice Islands are better and they also give you FL. They grant you a lot of money even without 100% of the trade. This production value once you spam manufactories...
 
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indika_tates

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Ok, you need much more infos then.
with native repression policy you can completely outpace them.

I agree with your post but I would say that native repression policy is not worth it. +20 global settler increase doesn't justify the policy. IMO, native non-interference is far better. There are a lot of reasons why. With no native attacks you can lower your army maintenance to cero while colonizing. Portugal economy early game is very weak. With no native aggresion, you can hunt the seven cities of gold with a single mercenary unit on 0% maintenance. That's a lot of ducats you save monthly otherwise you can't.

You gain a free merchant if you colonize Gold coast and grab Cayor from Jolof (a natural move). African natives are pretty dangerous to your manpower and they attack so often.
As I said before, I would recommend England for a beginner if you want to colonize. Just abandon every french province (own calais until you enable the +10 mercantilism godsend). With a good fleet your homeland is safe and some English ideas are pretty strong (+15% tax, +10% from being protestant+ 10% from economy ideas is a huge boost).

There are some disgusting events like Lollards, or the War of the Roses but you feel so comfortable when no one can put a foot on your island and you can declare war where you want no matter how big or powerful they are or how many allies they have. And the most important thing. You don't have to colonize. Let Castille & Portugal do it for you. You can rob their colonies when you want.
 

LS22

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Portugal playthrough:
1. Break relations with England, and Ally Castile;
2. Don't hire any advisors, and focus in admin;
3. Use Castile to conquer Tanger and Melilla, while fabricating in Gibraltar and Granada;
4. If Castile hans't attacked yet, dow Granada and promisse land to Castile;
5. Colonize Cape Verde;
6. With only 1 colonist go for Brasil. With 2 colonists, go also for Caribbean Sea. With 3 go asap to the Cape.
7. Focus your military interventions in India and Indonesia;
8. Try to ally France, in order to be able to dow Castile;
9. If you manage it, take Sevilla above all else.
10. Just snowball from there.

Keep in mind that Pdx designed Portugal to be as strong as a military weak city state. So, manage it as one.
 

Sfan

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I agree with your post but I would say that native repression policy is not worth it. +20 global settler increase doesn't justify the policy. IMO, native non-interference is far better. There are a lot of reasons why. With no native attacks you can lower your army maintenance to cero while colonizing. Portugal economy early game is very weak. With no native aggresion, you can hunt the seven cities of gold with a single mercenary unit on 0% maintenance. That's a lot of ducats you save monthly otherwise you can't.

You gain a free merchant if you colonize Gold coast and grab Cayor from Jolof (a natural move). African natives are pretty dangerous to your manpower and they attack so often.
As I said before, I would recommend England for a beginner if you want to colonize. Just abandon every french province (own calais until you enable the +10 mercantilism godsend). With a good fleet your homeland is safe and some English ideas are pretty strong (+15% tax, +10% from being protestant+ 10% from economy ideas is a huge boost).

There are some disgusting events like Lollards, or the War of the Roses but you feel so comfortable when no one can put a foot on your island and you can declare war where you want no matter how big or powerful they are or how many allies they have. And the most important thing. You don't have to colonize. Let Castille & Portugal do it for you. You can rob their colonies when you want.
I know my point of view is not that popular. It's +20 per year though. It means around 10% faster colonies in early-mid game. The snowball you get from there brings you more money.
I don't find the Portuguese economy all that weak actually. You can't afford high level advisors but you start with a good ruler, so you still outtech Castile and this is what matters. Your ideas will give you tons of money. But this may be because I play the economical game very well and I minmax everything. If you are not that confident on your economy maybe go for coexistence.
 
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indika_tates

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I know my point of view is not that popular. It's +20 per year though. It means around 10% faster colonies in early-mid game. The snowball you get from there brings you more money.
I don't find the Portuguese economy all that weak actually. You can't afford high level advisors but you start with a good ruler, so you still outtech Castile and this is what matters. Your ideas will give you tons of money. But this may be because I play the economical game very well and I minmax everything. If you are not that confident on your economy maybe go for coexistence.

The economy game is what I play. I love to be filthy rich in this game. It's just Portugal base development doesn't allow a proper economy early game. Of course, you can manage it and create a powerful economy 100 years later. This is my last portuguese campaign (rights of man).

RhKUEvI.jpg


It's about 100 years from game start and the economy is in a good shape. 50 ducats monthly, a lovely portuguese merchant republic and i'm making my way to India. But I feel that Portugal is weaker compared to other colonial nation, like Netherlands, Great Britain or Spain.

My Dutch campaign is going so far so well compared to the Portuguese one. Of course, lovely Netherlands is the king of trade. But it's not easy at all. This is a Holland campaign.

JMGoPqU.jpg


But no nation can compare with England about making ducats. It's simple. I have more ducats than I can spend ever. And this is something only GB can achieve because of their amazing starting position.

zaMLPNf.jpg


So yes, every colonizer is able to do so. But If I have to choose one, GB wins :) That's why I recommend it for beginners. It's easy and funny and a nation with a lot of flavour and events.
 

kmh42

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Ok, you need much more infos then.

Trade :
First, do NOT check the tooltips about trade, they are always wrong and useless. Instead, try and see how it goes. Move a merchant somewhere and see if you make more next month. Collect somewhere instead of steering and see if you make more. The more you play, the better you will be at guessing this without having to try.

There are several things that are always true however. If a coastal tradenode goes in only one direction, this is useless to have a merchant in there if he can be somewhere else, because you will automatically steer trade and a merchant will only give you +2TP. In an inland tradenode like Champagne this is worth it because you get around 50TP from the "caravan". If a tradenode steers in different directions, like Ivory Coast, you have to have a merchant there. The tooltips are bugged. They say something like "steering 10 ducats towards Sevilla" while it is actually steering an equal number of ducats towards every reachable node unless you have a merchant to direct trade, so 2.50 towars English Channel, Bordeaux, Caribbean and Sevilla in such a situation. However, if you have a merchant steering in Safi, he is useless since the difference is the difference between 4 ducats and 3.9 ducats steered towards Sevilla. Am I being clear?

However, this can obviously be worth it to collect in a tradenode like Safi. This depends on your number of merchants, your tradepower in Sevilla and in every other tradenode where you have a significant power, and the ratio between your TP in Sevilla and the total TP in Sevilla. You can theorycraft it by using a formula, or just try, as I said. This takes only 2 months for everything to be set up and you can see if there is any significant difference. I don't know if you are familiar with the basic concept behind collecting out of your homenode: you get -50% tradepower there, which is a big deal if this is a big node where you had 40% or something, but is insignificant if this is a smaller node where you had 90%. You also lose the transfer bonus in Sevilla, and this can be very meaningful. If you have a lot of merchants steering trade all around the map in a global trade empire, you can have over +100% in your homenode, this is insanely strong to monopolize it without attacking Spain. You renounce all of this by collecting in Safi.

The basic idea is usually to abandon the idea of steering completely once you start collecting elsewhere, because the transfer bonus is lost anyway. So if you collect in Safi, collect in every valuable tradenode. There are a few exceptions to this, if you can get some "almost endnodes" like Zanzibar/The Cape with a very high tradepower, you could have a strategy where you steer trade from everywhere in Asia towards them, collect there, and collect in Sevilla as well to have the American money. This is optimal if you have 0 control over the Ivory Coast, but this is not your situation at all. Worth mentioning though.

In a nutshell, 90% of the time this is best to either steer everywhere towards your homenode, or collect everywhere around the globe, but not do a little bit of both. In your situation, you have a low control of Sevilla and probably a high control of Safi, so right now this is probably better to collect in Safi, but in the long term this is probably better to steer everything towards Sevilla to get as much control of the node as possible thanks to the transfer bonus, and to make it the most valuable tradenode of the game. This is even more important in 1.18 because this guarantees the fact you spawn Global Trade.

Navy/Economy:

You have far too many heavies right now imo. Heavy ships are extremely expensive and not that useful in an early SP game. Especially if you are allied with Spain, they can provide a lot of heavies themselves. Just check the war screen there. Your side has 23 heavies, their side has 3 heavies. DO not sink your heavies, but leave them mothballed. They are a budget hole early game, and having a good budget early game is so important because your early benefit gets snowballed over the game. Having more money very early game means more lightships and more churches and workshops, so more money at lvl 11, so more manufactories, so even more money lategame. This is why this is usually better to have 0 heavy and 0 fort very early game. It's not that they are useless, it's just that not having them early allows you to have more of them lategame.

You say you use your heavies to protect yourself against pirates. You can use lightships for this as well. This is poorly explained but they will give you tradepower as well when they protect you against pirates. And maintaining a huge fleet of heavies costs more than what the pirates take away from you, usually. Overall, you should have a much bigger tradefleet imo. Here this is better to do the math, because you can't build the ships and destroy them later without a huge cost, so you better be sure before building them. So here is the idea. Early game, a tradeship costs 0.04 per month and costs 20 ducats. It makes money if the 2TP it gives you in the node it collects in allow you to have more than 0.04 ducats more per month. I would need a screenshot of Sevilla to explain it to you with precise numbers, but this should be super worth it to protect trade there. If you win 0.06 ducats per month per light ship, then the lightsip is as good as a church that would give you 0.10 per month, which is considered the base from which you should build them in a normal situation. Light ships are overall the same, they are useful in wars as well, but they can be destroyed, but they can also capture ships, so overall this is about the same thing. Early game, before you have a lot of heavies, simply mothball your tradefleet if it is in a dangerous war. This one is not dangerous because your side has an overwhelming naval supremacy. If you win 0.08 ducats per month per light ship, then the lightsip is as good as a church that would give you 0.20 per month, which is massive. This is possible that your ships would grant you even more, I would need a screenshot of the Sevilla tradenode to do the calculation.

You are allied with Spain, this means you have a huge meatshield, but also means that noone will want your land because no ennemy neighbours you. This is why Portugal is considered the best country for beginners, you cannot lose land of the entire game if you are friendly with Spain. Even if you are fully occupied they will only ask money, and breaking alliance with Spain. This means you should not be affraid of losing a war, and should not overcommit in them. Protect Spain if they are your ally because you don't want France to invade them totally and destroy them, but abandon your country or separate peace if you are losing the war, there is no problem in that because you will only lose money, and that would cost you more money to fight the war. That's also why you should not have forts imo, they are taking a lot of money from you for nothing right now because all the fighting happens in Spain. The best way to have a massive economy lategame is to reduce the costs to a minimum early game. Your budget should not be balanced. It should be heavily in benefit, so that you can build buildings to have even more money later and so on. This money is used to run several colonies at a time, to spam mercs and conscription centers. This way, even Portugal can match France from midgame, and you can have one of the higher forcelimits lategame. If you use forts and heavies early, there is no chance you can do this.

Diplomacy :

I guess France rivalled you. That's sad because that's too late to turn things around and betray Spain. But you say your France isn't impressive. It did not blob, but it is a lot stronger that Spain, or that any country in the world actually, except maybe the Ottos. Heck, you are allied with Spain and you seem to say that France wins. Imagine if you were on France's side... Here you condemned yourself to never having a full control of Sevilla. If you play another Portuguese game and do the opposite, ally France and kick Spain, you have a full control of Sevilla for free so your ships can do something else and you make a lot more money. Spain has no PU on Naples either, so they are weak and they will never expand because they neighbor only France and you. They will eventually be more of a problem that an helping hand. That gives some challenge though. Try allying Austria then, especially if they kept the emperorship, they will protect you and they usually don't do suicide offensive wars in which they call you. Spain is usually a pretty weak ally lategame but I guess you have no choice but keeping it now.

Wars :

Always be on time with military techs. This should not be hard because you are a western country and military points are not really useful for anything but teching. There are ideas of course, just be careful not to dump every points in them instead of teching, techs are better that ideas usually. Only develop if you have no tech and no idea to take.

What is the composition of your stacks, and which military tech are you at?

The optimal stack is something like 12-4 before level 7, 12-4-4, 12-4-6 or 12-4-8 after cannons depending on your income, but usually 12-4-4/6 early and 12-4-6/8 after level 13, when artillery becomes a thing. If you have money issues, be at a minimum number of 2 art pre13. I usually go with 16-4-10 around level 18 with the increased combat width but this depend on your income. You slowly increase artillery and reduce cavalry after that to end up with something like 20-4-20 lategame, or even 20-0-20 depending on point of views. Level 22 is the real turning point for artillery from which it becomes insanely good and level 25 is even more good. The idea is that you should have a full combat width made of infantry and some cav to flank, and gradually have a full backrow of artillery, ideally a full backrow of artillery from level 22 or 25. This is always good to have more artillery if you can afford it, it's just that artillery is not that good pre-13 and very expensive. It is OK between 13 and 22, strong post 22 and godlike post 25. Artillery can fire from the backrow as you may know but it takes heavy casualties when fighting in the frontrow. The lategame strat is to have the maximum number of artillery, and to protect them as much as you can with mostly infantry in the frontrow.

Apart from that, consolidate your stacks before every battle. Shift consolidate allows you to consolidate without losing regiments. This is more expensive in the short term and less expensive in the long term. Always have a general leading your army. Be careful with terrain. Engage with one stack and reinforce the battle gradually with the other stacks, because if you engage with 4 stacks, 3 of them cannot fight but they still take morale damage. And apart from that there is not much to say. Your troops will be weaker that France's or Prussia's anyway, except if you stack ideas. Lategame, you have western units so you crush everyone not western, even militaristic nations like the Ottomans. But money should win the wars as Portugal, not quality.

Colonization:

Colonization is not that strong right now, but this is still a good way of becoming stronger when your neighbours are stronger than you. This is the historical situation of Portugal and Netherlands for instance. There are several things to consider when deciding where to colonize.

First, and you seem familiar with this, mostly colonize if you can transfer trade towards your homenode. That's why NA is not that important as Portugal, but the Caribbean, South America or Africa are most important. There is an exception if you have a small kingdom and you can reach Indonesia and the Spice Islands. Even without steering trade, the production value of these colonies if you can state them is worth it.

Pretty obviously prefer provinces with high development, but also provinces with good potential tradegoods. There is a bonus for colonies neighbouring each other so try to have colonies neighbouring each other. Also prioritize provinces without a lot of natives or with natives not ferocious because as Portugal you should go for native repression policy; this helps you immensely and you can divert an army there to protect your colonies without much harm because Portugal is safe from ennemy aggression. Use this same army to smash native nations.
The best provinces are thus the Cape, Ile Bourbon and Mauritius, and the Caribbean. Chose provinces that give you access to native nations, they are the easier way to expand. All of this being said, La Plata is not key at all for instance, and the northern coast of Brazil as well. The Eastern coast of Brazil, the Caribbean and Western Colombia are all good however.

The AI usually colonizes at a predictible pace and in a predictible order. Brazil is one of the first regions to be colonized, the Caribbean as well. They should be your priority. At least a few provinces of Brazil because the Caribbean Islands are more important. The AI usually don't bother with Africa until the late 16th century so you can ignore Africa as well, this is a waste of opportunities. The colonies there are also not good at all apart from centers of trades. They are slow to grow because of climate, there are a lot of natives and they are usually low development. The provinces with a lot of trade power are the only useful ones in Western Africa, let Castile or France lose time colonizing the rest of them. Jump to the Cape and Swellendam, for neighbour colonies bonus, and because you don't need any army there because of unferocious natives. Go for Ile Bourbon and Mauritius to take these good provinces and block other colonizers, and go back to colonizing the Americas. When someone starts colonizing southern Africa or St Helena, go for Indonesia, this means they will be there in 10-20 years but with native repression policy you can completely outpace them.


Edit :
Portugal is playable. Really. Especially if you kill Spain. But even without killing Spain. There are no problems with managing colonial nations right now, it's the easiest it has ever been because you can develop their provinces and reduce their LD. This is not a RoM feature if I'm not wrong. Anyway, CN in the Americas are good, but the Spice Islands are better and they also give you FL. They grant you a lot of money even without 100% of the trade. This production value once you spam manufactories...

Holy moly this is a lot of information! Some details I already knew but this gives me a good overall guideline for a new playthrough. This was exactly what I need right now, thank you very much.
Here is the Sevilla TN:
20161128111929_1.jpg
Please do the math for further understanding.
Portugal playthrough:
1. Break relations with England, and Ally Castile;
2. Don't hire any advisors, and focus in admin;
3. Use Castile to conquer Tanger and Melilla, while fabricating in Gibraltar and Granada;
4. If Castile hans't attacked yet, dow Granada and promisse land to Castile;
5. Colonize Cape Verde;
6. With only 1 colonist go for Brasil. With 2 colonists, go also for Caribbean Sea. With 3 go asap to the Cape.
7. Focus your military interventions in India and Indonesia;
8. Try to ally France, in order to be able to dow Castile;
9. If you manage it, take Sevilla above all else.
10. Just snowball from there.

Keep in mind that Pdx designed Portugal to be as strong as a military weak city state. So, manage it as one.
This is pretty much identical with the EU4wiki strategy. I tried to play this way but it lacks crucial information details and I lack crucial mechanic understanding.
You can't afford high level advisors
Should I get advisors at all, like LS22 said?
The economy game is what I play. I love to be filthy rich in this game. It's just Portugal base development doesn't allow a proper economy early game. Of course, you can manage it and create a powerful economy 100 years later. This is my last portuguese campaign (rights of man).

RhKUEvI.jpg


It's about 100 years from game start and the economy is in a good shape. 50 ducats monthly, a lovely portuguese merchant republic and i'm making my way to India. But I feel that Portugal is weaker compared to other colonial nation, like Netherlands, Great Britain or Spain.

My Dutch campaign is going so far so well compared to the Portuguese one. Of course, lovely Netherlands is the king of trade. But it's not easy at all. This is a Holland campaign.

JMGoPqU.jpg


But no nation can compare with England about making ducats. It's simple. I have more ducats than I can spend ever. And this is something only GB can achieve because of their amazing starting position.

zaMLPNf.jpg


So yes, every colonizer is able to do so. But If I have to choose one, GB wins :) That's why I recommend it for beginners. It's easy and funny and a nation with a lot of flavour and events.
Thank you for your insight and recommendation for GB. Like I said I don't play much EUIV (compared ti CK2 but still more then any other game) so I will stick with Portugal and maybe Timurid's for now. When I fell confident I will switch to another nation.
 

kmh42

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Oh and Spain won the war even I was no help and all other allies dropped out in separate peace.
20161128113535_1.jpg
I keep this savegame alive for a while and see how much I can optimize in my economy.
 

kmh42

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I destroyed all forts, mothballed all heavy ships, build up light ships till limit, played a little bit with my merchants and now I have doubled my income!
 

Sfan

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Good!

What is your actual trade situation?
Because judging by your screenshots I was about to tell you that since Sevilla is so rich you should probably collect there, steer everywhere and move your ships in Sevilla.
 

kmh42

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Good!

What is your actual trade situation?
Because judging by your screenshots I was about to tell you that since Sevilla is so rich you should probably collect there, steer everywhere and move your ships in Sevilla.
I just lost all my troops twice in another war between France and Spain (I jsut got wiped out in a single battle!). Sus declared war for independence with the help of Tunis and England so I was f*cked. I start a new game. :(
 

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This was winnable with the help of Spain but I underatand the frustration.
I started a Portugal game myself yesterday night because I really got myself into the country again with this thread. So basically ask any question you want, on this thread or by PM. I've played a little bit more that 10 years but I'll go back to it tonight CET.