So, it's Charlemagne

[anomanderus]

Old Gods II: Electric Boogaloo

This means Paradox will finally flesh out the other pagans

 

[Kanaric]

No, it was not entirely Visigoths. It was entirely ruled over by Visigoths, but the people themselves weren't the Germanic Goths. So either Paradox made the culture in Iberia ahistorical, or they're just using 'Visigoth' to refer to the non-Germanic people who lived there.

Then what were the people there. Keeping in mind this is a game where germany is entirely german and Byzantium is entirely greek except where there are armenians. And king way back in the day said that the cultures in the game are intended to be abtract.

 

[User29]

The Franks of 768 aren't such a huge superpower then.

They indeed were a superpower at Pepin's death.

 

[LumberKing]

"Historical Sciences" as a term sounds suspect just on the face of it - not sure which part of the scientific method could ever be applied to history. What is an objective fact is that whole ideas of mathematics that were known the ancients were lost to Europe before the reconquista, Euclid's Elements having been entirely lost. Ideas which had been developed outside of Europe hadn't penetrated the continent until that period either. These are the works which were needed in order to approach many of the achievements in engineering which existed during the time of the Romans.

I guess in order to understand where you're coming from I'd need to understand what constitutes a dark age for you. Mine, as I posted above, pretty much hinges on the loss of knowledge needed to maintain large urban centers, expansive empires, and trade.

Perhaps you should consider studying up on the History of Science (which is actually a sub-discipline of Philosophy). Science in general comes from the field of Philosophy, where empirical epistemologists sought ways to prove their way of thinking, though the method not too dissimilar to the one used today existed earlier being used by natural philosophers, who are the direct ancestors of scientists today.

 

[DesNibelungen]

The Dark Ages has always been understood to also come with a specific set of criteria, any time or place that fits those criteria is said to be in a dark age.

For the sake of pointless wikipedia linking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography)

Your own link states that the modern usage of the term refers to the early Middle Ages. When you say "the Dark Ages", that period is what your listeners will infer.

 

[User29]

Perhaps you should consider studying up on the History of Science (which is actually a sub-discipline of Philosophy). Science in general comes from the field of Philosophy, where empirical epistemologists sought ways to prove their way of thinking, though the method not too dissimilar to the one used today existed earlier being used by natural philosophers, who are the direct ancestors of scientists today.

This has nothing to do with what he said though.

 

[zeress]

SOA adds college of cardinals, heresies becoming mainstream, and TONs of other features than just fixing earlier ones. The new features outweigh the fixed which which of course you don't need to pay for the DLC to get either. You do, however, have to pay to get the college of cardinals, playable muslims and pagans, india, etc.

I think you're missing the point I was trying to make (I could be wrong though). My problem isn't the addition of new things persay, but the lack of detail to existing things. Generally PDS focus on adding more things onto more things is gradually making the game an ocean with the depth of a wadding pool. They really do need to go back and focus on older things, but that doesn't sell DLC, new things do

 

[LumberKing]

This has nothing to do with what he said though.

He's dismissing history or social science in general as legitimate discipline of science. I went off topic a bit, but my point stands.

 

[Abnwtwtud]

I think you're missing the point I was trying to make (I could be wrong though). My problem isn't the addition of new things persay, but the lack of detail to existing things. Generally PDS focus on adding more things onto more things is gradually making the game an ocean with the depth of a wadding pool. They really do need to go back and focus on older things, but that doesn't sell DLC, new things do

But the current depth is sufficient to many players. As long as it is fun, why shouldn't PDS add to the size of the fun rather than try to increase the complexity of what already exists, possibility disrupting the balance of existing fun?

 

[zeress]

But the current depth is sufficient to many players. As long as it is fun, why shouldn't PDS add to the size of the fun rather than try to increase the complexity of what already exists, possibility disrupting the balance of existing fun?

Ay, that's where I disagree fundamentally with their design philosophies, both as a player and as a modder. Not much really to be said on that regard really, that's the way they're going to do business and develop their game and I disagree with it.

It saddens me to see the progressively move further away from the Victoria II model of complexity (which needed work as well, don't get me wrong) and I doubt for me personally I will be sticking around with them after EU4. Nonetheless I am genuinely happy to see people who are happy with the status quo, as at the end of the day that is what gaming is all about

 

[User29]

He's dismissing history or social science in general as legitimate discipline of science. I went off topic a bit, but my point stands.

I think he means how creationists use the term "historical science" as a way to get around modern sciences, he's not actually decrying history nor science.

 

[killerbee256]

I think you're missing the point I was trying to make (I could be wrong though). My problem isn't the addition of new things persay, but the lack of detail to existing things. Generally PDS focus on adding more things onto more things is gradually making the game an ocean with the depth of a wadding pool. They really do need to go back and focus on older things, but that doesn't sell DLC, new things do

With all due respect (as I contributed to your mod) this is hyperbole, I've tired to play ck2+, it's of a mess. If that's what you mean by metaphorical depth, count me out.

 

[similan]

But the current depth is sufficient to many players. As long as it is fun, why shouldn't PDS add to the size of the fun rather than try to increase the complexity of what already exists, possibility disrupting the balance of existing fun?

Is it really sufficient? Most of my friends stop playing after they got their empire and there isn't a lot to do in peace time expect make preperations for war

 

[zeress]

With all due respect (as I contributed to your mod) this is hyperbole, I've tired to play ck2+, it's of a mess. If that's what you mean by metaphorical depth, count me out.

I wasn't even talking about my own mod, no need to go for personal attacks. The other overhaul mods seem too have the same general ideas in one way or another, whether it be historical focus, gameplay focus or other things and in my opinion they all strengthen the community as a whole. People play for different reasons, no need to get defensive.

 

[Jacob Braughton]

No... You are so wrong. And sorry, maybe it's my english. In Germany history an the university is Geschichtswissenschaft. I'Äm not sure how to translate it right... Academic history? I'm not sure. And Arabic math and numbers came to Europe around 1202 . Because of Fibonacci. Not because of reconquista. There was very much ancient knowledge at the middle ages. Trade was powerful in the middle ages too. And the most cities were larger in the late middle ages then in the renaissance.

What you tell are the stories from the humanists who believe the whole middle ages had no knowledge and everything. This is so wrong.

Thanks for giving me something a little more substantial to chew on, and I apologize I promise I wasn't trying to willfully misunderstand you. Fibonacci, and the fall of Cordoba, are both from the 13th century, we're really not advancing this to the early middle ages at all. On trade - it's always powerful, but that book keeping and methods of financing trade were revolutionized with the reintroduction of classical texts during this time period is what I'm getting at. I'll look into those population figures, but clearly the plague is on its way later in the game largely because of a shift to more urban life in Renaissance period, and the plague is going to kill so many people because of the infrastructure that doesn't yet exist in these urban centers.

As a semantic reminder of my original point - the midpoint of the game is 1160. Fibonacci is still another 40 years away. My point was that the majority of the game takes place in the Dark Ages.

 

[User29]

With all due respect (as I contributed to your mod) this is hyperbole, I've tired to play ck2+, it's of a mess. If that's what you mean by metaphorical depth, count me out.

"with all due respect" and then a personal and uncalled for attack on his work? yeah... what a wonderful argument.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Old Gods II: Electric Boogaloo

This means Paradox will finally flesh out the other pagans

Only Germanic ones though. Don't expect Slavs, Balts, Finns and Tengris to get any love (or... the horror... West Africans).

 

[Abnwtwtud]

@zeress: Really, as long as it's a fun game for enough people that buy it, it all works out. Many other developers will and have balked at having even the complexity of CK2 or EU4 in their games.

Is it really sufficient? Most of my friends stop playing after they got their empire and there isn't a lot to do in peace time expect make preperations for war

Not going to argue with that. I sincerely hope that due to the nature of the DLC, and the large blobs that exist, there will be a redoing of Empire level mechanics/decisions/events. Frankly, I would be astonished if this DLC doesn't include that if nothing else.

 

[User29]

Only Germanic ones though. Don't expect Slavs, Balts, Finns and Tengris to get any love.

What Germanic ones? I'm pretty sure all the Saxons who will be pagan are getting the Norse religion.

 

[Jacob Braughton]

He's dismissing history or social science in general as legitimate discipline of science. I went off topic a bit, but my point stands.

I was debating the use of the term "Historical Sciences", which is a point I wouldn't even press if I realised Thure was actually just translating.

Edit: Yay redundant sentences