All in good time, Cinead, all in good time.......
That means you have some bloody fantastic ideas on your mind, amirite?
(besides the African kingdoms of course
)
So, is V2IP (or VIP2) in the works?
- Thread starter unmerged(68110)
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
That means you have some bloody fantastic ideas on your mind, amirite?
(besides the African kingdoms of course
)
It wouldn't surprise me the slightest if OHGamer has been into the beta for months now, working on VIP2 and being a good beta overall.
IF all of the colonial world is to be full of tribal and heathen nations, then you need the ability to Buy Land, to set up Charter Companies to colonise etc.
Most places cannot be invaded, because there is no state to invade, so the VIP answer is just as bad. New Zealand couldnt have been invaded, it was not a single country, it had no government nor concept of country or state. There was nothing to invade, not until well after it was thoroughly British owned already.
Most of Africa was not claimed by Armies marching in, but by trading companies, missionaries and bureaucrats, Not by Force, but by trickery, often back up by force some years later once the natives began to work out that the land they had always lived in was suddenly someone elses.
But the invasion and annexation mode of colonisation, is entirely unfit to represent most colonisation in the era except those few places that were already nations in the first Victoria.
Most places cannot be invaded, because there is no state to invade, so the VIP answer is just as bad. New Zealand couldnt have been invaded, it was not a single country, it had no government nor concept of country or state. There was nothing to invade, not until well after it was thoroughly British owned already.
Most of Africa was not claimed by Armies marching in, but by trading companies, missionaries and bureaucrats, Not by Force, but by trickery, often back up by force some years later once the natives began to work out that the land they had always lived in was suddenly someone elses.
But the invasion and annexation mode of colonisation, is entirely unfit to represent most colonisation in the era except those few places that were already nations in the first Victoria.
I disagree. It is true that missionaries and traders came first, but none of them were able to actually stake claims to land. And they could not just hoist the British flag and expect protection once the natives found out that the glass trinkets you sold them were trinkets. You needed to get the British Navy to send someone with the capacity (and the guns) to hoist the flag and establish a protectorate, or to buy your land from you and turn it into a protectorate.
Check out the history of how Britain took over South Africa. There were independent actors who tried to set up "free states", financing and organizing their rule over African territories, but they all had to beg the crown to step in and take over, as soon as the natives rose in revolt.
The French in particular fought a number of campaigns in west Africa to subdue hostile tribes before they could establish a regular colonial administration. General Faidherbe conquered a number of African kingdoms who would not voluntarily submit themselves to colonial authority. And this was not a village-by-village procedure, rather he would go and submit large, contiguous territories one by one for the French Republic, which was decently modeled in VIP. It was certainly more interesting than having all of Africa be a blank map, and "scramble" only by building forts and lumber mills.
Orinsul said:
Well, one thing about VIP for Vicky 1 which I did find maybe a *tad* unrealistic were the placeholder nations, which in real life had no real form of central government and didn't really operate at anything above village level. If the new colonisation system works better than it used to, then we could *maybe* think about doing away with them. But that's just me thinking out loud. I'de certainly like natives in unclaimed provinces where colonialism is taking place be able to fight, and set back European ambitions: even in acephalous societies, angry people can form armies.
To my mind though, there are places in Africa which had systems of government which, though technologically backward, were certainly advanced enough to be considered 'countries' in game. They'd be mostly concentrated in north and west Africa, and maybe down the east coast.
- Ashanti, Dahomey, Tukulor, a couple of Bambara kingdoms, Mossi, maybe one or two of the Tuareg tribes, three or four Yoruba city states and Benin. Samori?
- Wadai, Borno, Baguirmi, Buganda, Bunyoro, Rwanda, Burundi, Mirambo? Tipu Tip?
- Sotho, Ndebele, Shona, Zulu, Gaza Nguni, Lozi, Ovimbundu, Msiri, Kazembe
There are probably more, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.
Most of Africa actually had kingdoms of some sort, and they had some reach, because most of Africa (especially the Congo and Angola regions) weren't very densely populated. Even the peoples of the Kalahari desert, who were really stone age nomads and had no kings in peace time, rallied together when war threatened one of the tribes.
Victoria unfortunately does not have a mechanism whereby traders encroach into African owned provinces. If there was such a mechanism then it would allow a modeling of the colonization process: You set up a trade post at the coast, traders encroach into the interior, you set some priorities for your local forces ("stay neutral in the natives' affairs", "foster amicable relations with the natives" or "extend our influence at all cost") and eventually driven by random events you get stuff like "Our traders have been murdered", "A local prince asks for our support", "The French have outcompeted us" or "The natives are marching on our forts!" Depending on how your relations with the natives develop, you could either peacefully integrate them (like with VIP's territorial cession events) or you would have to fight a war to subdue and conquer them.
The native kingdoms could be influenced by the nearby colonial powers, kind of like how countries can be influences by the major alliances in HoI3, and if they get close enough to one nexus of the triangle, you can propose a protectorate treaty.
But that would -at best- be stuff for an expansion...
I really hope there's an expansion pack that eventually makes colonization a more involved process than the bare bones it was in Vicky 1 and is shaping up to be in Vicky 2...pretty much what you said. I'd love that. The politics, economics and all that are impressive, but this is an era of IMPERIALISM
It wouldn't surprise me the slightest if OHGamer has been into the beta for months now, working on VIP2 and being a good beta overall.
I seem to recollect from somewhere that OHgamer is somehow involved with Vicky 2 development. I'd guess scenario setup.
Of course they also reused the map that he worked on with some other people.
He made the base map they used for developing the V2 map, but I haven't seen any official mention of him being in the beta. We won't get it either, not before the game is out at least.
one of the things that will further help model colonization is the process of spheres of influence, which is basically what resulted from the entrance of traders and/or missionaries in a region.
I think this is something that, when combined with the additional modding in of some new forms of government to represent less developed societies, could very nicely model the process of the interaction between Western powers and traditional societies in Africa, Asia and the Pacific while not reducing these areas to tabula rasa nothingness.
So to answer the question, yes I've been doing some thinking on the topic.
I think this is something that, when combined with the additional modding in of some new forms of government to represent less developed societies, could very nicely model the process of the interaction between Western powers and traditional societies in Africa, Asia and the Pacific while not reducing these areas to tabula rasa nothingness.
So to answer the question, yes I've been doing some thinking on the topic.
It wouldn't surprise me the slightest if OHGamer has been into the beta for months now, working on VIP2 and being a good beta overall.
He better not be working on VIP2, that would distinctly piss me off. Why should Victoria 2 be released to you in a slightly poorer shape because someone wants to work on a Mod project.
I could see that. But other PI games have got modders in for XPs, which helped them be ready sooner. Or have I misunderstood? PI is a very modder friendly company, so I thought it might be in line with your policy.
I could see that. But other PI games have got modders in for XPs, which helped them be ready sooner. Or have I misunderstood? PI is a very modder friendly company, so I thought it might be in line with your policy.
We are Mod friendly but for God's sake if you are a Beta let's try to get the game in the best possible shape at release. After all this not only makes the game more fun out of the box, but makes the Mod less work.