So is the idea delayment basically another nerf for hordes?

[Koivin]

No. Draker said "buffalo hunters". I replied they were not. If you do not see how it is an acceptable reply, then I'm sorry.

He mentioned north american tribes (context: CoP) being boring and you retort by saying meso- and south amerindians having complex societies. That wasn't the point. And don't be pendantic about the buffalo hunting part, while perhaps incorrect and worded politically incorrect, he was being facetious and trying to get a point across. The point being: northern amerindians were simply not as politically intriguing or societally complex enough to make them interesting in this game.

 

[Magean]

Oh enlighten me then. Tell me about events that compare with the HYW, Spanish Succession, Napoleon, Swedens path from the Kalmar Union to ruling the Baltic.
Their arts and sciences that compare with renaissance. Religious events spanning multiple nations like the reformation. Or how they colonized around the globe.
Seriously, I would like to know. Learning is always good.

The lack of a writing system to record stuff doesn't mean nothing happened. Besides, the Eastern part of North America had sedentary people that formed trading cities, the Mississippi people among other. Some of these civilizations collapsed shortly before the game timeframe, and that would be quite interesting events if anything.

 

[WeissRaben]

He mentioned north american tribes (context: CoP) being boring and you retort by saying meso- and south amerindians having complex societies. That wasn't the point. And don't be pendantic about the buffalo hunting part, while perhaps incorrect and worded politically incorrect, he was being facetious and trying to get a point across. The point being: northern amerindians were simply not as politically intriguing or societally complex enough to make them interesting in this game.

No, I'm talking about Northern Amerindians, as I said. They went back to semi-nomadism when the plagues hit, but there was no European conquest to immediately form a further social structure. The Little Ice Age didn't help.

 

[Magean]

He mentioned north american tribes (context: CoP) being boring and you retort by saying meso- and south amerindians having complex societies. That wasn't the point. And don't be pendantic about the buffalo hunting part, while perhaps incorrect and worded politically incorrect, he was being facetious and trying to get a point across. The point being: northern amerindians were simply not as politically intriguing or societally complex enough to make them interesting in this game.

Did you read WeissRaben's post ? He reply was not that Mesoamericans had complex societies. It was about Northern natives. The comma is important.

 

[Koivin]

No, I'm talking about Northern Amerindians, as I said. They went back to semi-nomadism when the plagues hit, but there was no European conquest to immediately form a further social structure. The Little Ice Age didn't help.

I am not even trying to participate in the argument here but rather facilitate it. But now it caught my interest. Care to share some more examples or good readings on these settled northern amerindians?

 

[Magean]

I am not even trying to participate in the argument here but rather facilitate it. But now it caught my interest. Care to share some more examples or good readings on these settled northern amerindians?

Aside from the already mentioned Cahokia, there you go :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippian_culture

Also, the natives living on the East coast may not have had long-lasting stone architecture, but they had some cities with several thousands inhabitants that served as power centers. For example, see the Powhatan. Those were quickly extinct, though.

 

[WeissRaben]

I am not even trying to participate in the argument here but rather facilitate it. But now it caught my interest. Care to share some more examples or good readings on these settled northern amerindians?

Sadly there's very little left, and it is quite the recent discovery - look for Mississipian or Cahokian culture.

 

[Magean]

As I've said above, the lack of a writing system or of technological advancements doesn't mean there were no polities, no intricate relations of war and diplomacy between the various groups.

EDIT : just think of Asian Steppe Nomads. If not for their literate neighbors, very little would be known of them in the earliest centuries of the 1st millenium. Would you say they had boring political lives ?

 

[earlofbrigand]

Back on topic!

The whole issue can be resolved by giving everyone an idea at level 3 and restricting certain ideas to further up the tech tree. There are multiple permutations available that could advance this idea further (idea trees, culture or regional specific ideas etc).

BUT - what will happen (quite rightly) is that after many hours of parallel gameplay processing, if the system is skewed by change, corrective measures will come into play with a future patch.

 

[Parapluman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia Here.

Thank you. It made for an interesting read, and while I admit that they were a complex farming society I still suspect European and Asian politics were rather more interesting. Though maybe one day archaeological evidence will be dug up proving me dead wrong. ^^

 

[karabinu]

It is, but it wasn't intended to be. We may have to look at a way of compensating for it depending on how hordes play out now.

What about decreasing colonial range on lower tech levels instead?

 

[RobRoy3]

What about decreasing colonial range on lower tech levels instead?

Seems like that would be a more targeted and more elegant solution to the perceived problem.

Seems like the Idea Group delay is a nerf to pretty much everyone, but with exaggerated impact on lower tech groups. Not sure why it's perceived as necessary or desirable to slow down the early game so much? But won't development, itself, drawing from the same Monarch Point pool, serve to slow things down a bit all by itself?

 

[Magean]

Seems like that would be a more targeted and more elegant solution to the perceived problem.

Seems like the Idea Group delay is a nerf to pretty much everyone, but with exaggerated impact on lower tech groups. Not sure why it's perceived as necessary or desirable to slow down the early game so much? But won't development, itself, drawing from the same Monarch Point pool, serve to slow things down a bit all by itself?

The question is, then : will you develop your provinces much as RotW ? As Eastern or Ottomans, you will, probably. However, in any slower tech group, I find myself sinking very few monarch points on buildings before I'm westernized, and I can imagine it being the same with development.

 

[Darkath]

It is, but it wasn't intended to be. We may have to look at a way of compensating for it depending on how hordes play out now.

Expansion in the AI idea pool pls.

 

[Aries666]

He asked for examples and so did I. Saying they're not something because you say they're not is not really a credible argument.

But of course making sweeping generalisations about the development of a whole continent of people is a credible argument?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

This is not a horde specific nerf, it is a heavy-handed nerf to all sub-Ottoman tech groups. The groups that are hit the hardest are Mesoamericans and Andean nations like Cuzco and Chimu. These nations are very reliant on exploration to get anything done before the junk ship nerf screws them over, and they have to hard-tech it. Native councils due to their geography are less likely to get blind colonial conquested and can reform into ideas, ironically being some of the only nations in the game that won't feel this nerf much at all.

By extension of having the biggest penalty in the old world, this hits hordes harder than other old world nations, but not much harder than Chinese for example.

 

[_gnoe_]

It is well known everything outside of Europe was filled with pathetic cavemen rolling around in their own feces barely able to hold a wooden spear.
I feel eu4 does a good job to represent this ingame.
Though I would like to see the unit pips re-balanced, those early game horde units are simply to strong.

 

[Aries666]

Back on topic!

The whole issue can be resolved by giving everyone an idea at level 3 and restricting certain ideas to further up the tech tree. There are multiple permutations available that could advance this idea further (idea trees, culture or regional specific ideas etc).

BUT - what will happen (quite rightly) is that after many hours of parallel gameplay processing, if the system is skewed by change, corrective measures will come into play with a future patch.

And how do you decide which ideas and therefore which play styles you wish to block?

 

[earlofbrigand]

And how do you decide which ideas and therefore which play styles you wish to block?

Take colonisation. You'd unlock the Exploration idea group - but a 'new' version would lose the 2nd extra colonist (the fifth bonus), replaced with something else (maybe lower native aggression or something). If you want to really go for it and get Expansion (which lets be honest, is usually the 2nd idea colonialists always go doe), then you would first have to unlock something else to go alongside it. Perhaps maritime or naval - or if you were a land coloniser, administrative.

So you couldn't just go for expansion straight away. Basically, at the moment, if you are close to the Atlantic and unlock exploration and expansion, you are well on the way to colonising half the world before other nations get a look in. This is a means to slow things down a bit - but still allow you to focus on it if you want. The focus is more expensive.

It's just an idea. It would need a reworking of idea groups - possibly a few more. But it allows for you to customise your nation a lot more than before.

Espionage is an idea that could really come into play. Reducing idea or tech cost by 20% if you have a Spy (maybe you have up to 2 of them) placed in a nation that is more advanced in certain areas.

 

[earlofbrigand]

And how do you decide which ideas and therefore which play styles you wish to block?

Realistically, if you want to go an colonise far away lands, you need a very good, robust navy.
If you want decent, productive colonies, you'd want Administration
etc.