so if Japan opted for USSR instead of US

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ConjurerDragon

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They weren`t the only trucks on which Katushas were mounted, nor were they first. SU produced over 200k trucks, quite enough for LL loss to not be that devastating.

And they received more than double that and more than 400000 from lendlease. I don´t know how those were split to Murmansk, Persia or Vladivostok, but let´s assume simply 50% and they would lose 200000 trucks. Sure you could argue that the rockets would not be mounted on THOSE trucks - but then the trucks would miss somewhere else, transporting supplies, ammunition or men that would be missing then from being where they should be.

Here, is an actual Russian goverment source(sadly, it is in Russian, but one can google translate it), of what was present in far east theartre in 1941-1945 by half-year. Divisions, brigades, Man, artillery pieces, planes, ex.
http://protown.ru/information/hide/5452.html

If it wasn´t translated to english it´s probably not worth to read.

The wikipedia`s articles`s data seem quite wrong.

Believing another source does not make one source wrong and WIKI usually has sources listed below it´s articles -)
 
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In June-July 1941, 91st, 119th, 166th, 107th, 133rd and 178th Rifle, 57th Tank and 69th Mechanized Divisions were moved from Siberia to Europe.
In August-December, 26th, 21st, 114th, 92nd, 65th, 32nd, 93rd, 78th Rifle, 58th and 60th Tank, 82nd Mechanized Divisions were moved from Siberia to Europe. Another 3, 238th Rifle, 18th and 20th MTN Cav divisions were moved from Central Asia (So definitely nothing to do with Japan). Of these, only 6 arrived in October - late enough, for them to be ordered west after Richard Sorge's message.
But if you are saying, that 18 divisions were instrumental, where does that leave the other ~260 divisions deployed against the Axis?
 
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By when? The Japanese industrial base wasn't sufficient to do this on short order and likely wasn't able to do this at all without diverting resources from other areas. As such I don't consider this assumption to be credible.

The end of 1937 would be a good stopping point, after the Battle of Shanghai and capture of Nanking and northern Shanxi (please, no mention of stuff that breaks forum rules, I don't want this thread to close too). From that point the Chinese would likely sign a peace treaty. That gives the Japanese 4 years to build as much equipment as possible.

by june 1943, SU had 43 divisions there.

Quick tangent, can you provide a source as to whether those were actual divisions or paper divisions? The Soviets had a habit of conjuring divisions from thin air, but some had no more than a brigade's worth of troops and equipment. That's why in most discussions of the Battle of Moscow people talk about the manpower equivalent of how many divisions were raised, since more divisions were raised than actually filled with soldiers and equipment.

As has been explained a few times, the forces in the East were not a decisive factor in stopping the Germans in 1941, they wouldn't have had an easier time until well into the winter, by which point the logistics elements which you consider 'irrelevant' are taking a major toll on the German ability to maintain offensive operations.

Again, arguing a point that hasn't been made. Show me where I said that those divisions were necessary to save Moscow? My point, and I'll bold this so you actually respond to it this time, is this:

The increased strain of fighting a two-front war, with a Japanese invasion of Siberia (in 1941 IJA forces totaled 1.7 million men, and by 1945 they had 5.5 million. They would have undoubtedly mobilized more men if they were planning to go toe to toe with the Soviets) would put a massive strain on Soviet forces starting in June. By the time winter comes around, the Soviets will have had to reinforce and resupply 34 divisions engaged in active combat for six months. That's also assuming they don't send more divisions to the east, which they undoubtedly would. This means that the Soviets would either ignore the Japanese and focus on the Germans (which would still put them in a much, much worse position with the Germans), or reinforce both fronts and give the Germans a much easier time. There would also be a qualitative difference in Soviet forces, as the tactics Zhukov developed would not be discovered at that time. Zhukov would likely be sent east (as until December 1941 Stalin had more faith in Timoshenko, so he would most likely remain in command).

Unconditional surrender and huge swaths of the Soviet Union being annexed.

Not unconditional, and annexation to the Astrakhan-Arkhangelsk line. I doubt they would have completely held to that, since they had Brest-Litovsk as precedent. If the Soviets lose Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad then it would be relatively easy for the Axis to threaten Arkhangelsk and Astrakhan, so it's not entirely out of the question, but again I doubt Hitler sees it as worth it. However, given that the US won't be joining the war anytime soon and the UK can't really threaten the continent on its own, they have time and resources to work with. This is to say nothing of the Japanese who would have cut off Siberia. Also remember, if the Germans take the Caucasus there goes the Tehran lend-lease route, that supplied huge amounts of military equipment (enough to supply 60 divisions by US standards, more by Soviet standards).

Assumption #2 has a huge amount to do with this, however you'd like to ignore the logistics challenge in defeating the Soviet Union it's there none the less.

Not ignoring, and it has nothing to do with it. You're talking about two entirely different timelines. The Soviet force composition in 1942 in this timeline will be radically different than their force composition OTL. You might see a push for Leningrad, or another push for Moscow. Either war, the resolution of one of those fronts would greatly reduce the logistical strain, and at the same time the Germans will have more time and resources to devote to improving logistics.

You seem to be failing to grasp that the Soviets had other things to worry about then their favorite pastime of cutthroat politics during the war.

On the contrary, there's no better time. If there was the feeling that the Soviets had completely collapsed (evacuation from Moscow) it would be very easy for Beria, for example, to kill Stalin and take his place.

Wartime is commonly where the cutthroat politics happen throughout history, from Rome to Russia. Just ask Leon Trotsky about murdering political opponents while they're fighting alongside you as allies.

Once again we're talking about what the Germans can accomplish so the according to you 'irrelevant' German logistics challenges have their effect. Time isn't in favor of Germany in the long run, even with the Soviets under more pressure Germany will be losing North Africa soon and start losing Italy. The Luftwaffe will be stuck in it's death-spiral of over-commitments and lack the personnel and equipment to regain or build strength.

How do they lose Italy? The US isn't in this war, Pearl Harbor didn't happen. Without a direct attack on the United States or invasion of the Americas (remember the Monroe Doctrine), they probably aren't joining the war. It took until 1943 for the Axis to lose Italy OTL and much of that was due to Operation Torch (carried out by the US). Without that, there's just a continuation of leapfrog warfare back and forth across the desert.

The German land forces will fare better of course in facing less counter-attacks from the Soviets but will still have few good answers for how to capture a city like Moscow, Leningrad or Stalingrad. Without accomplishing this as time passes after Barborssa the overall pressure on the Soviets is reduced, even with Japan's efforts as the Soviets get a handle of things over the winter and stabilize the situation.

Here is where you miss how critical lend-lease was. Without the Vladivostok route, the Soviets have to produce more food, trucks, locomotives, radios, machine tools, etc. That means fewer tanks, planes, rifles, artillery pieces, etc. That means fewer draft-eligible men. That means less equipment for frontline troops. The Soviets would be forced to try and dislodge entrenched Japanese in Siberia (no easy feat as they would be hundreds of kilometers from Irkutsk), while simultaneously launching futile counteroffensives against the Germans. The pressure is on the Soviets here, as it was OTL.

As for Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad, there are answers for those. Operation Nordlicht was to be the final assault on Leningrad in 1942. If this had been coordinated with the Finns and didn't happen to take place at the same time as the Sinyavino Counteroffensive (which likely wouldn't have been nearly as potent if the Soviets had to supply offensives in the east), then it is likely the city would have fallen, or at the very least been heavily contested. All routes of supply would have been cut, which means it would be only a matter of time before the city fell.

In Stalingrad, the Germans have much more time. If Leningrad is captured, that frees up many troops that can be redeployed south. The Soviets would not be able to sustain enough forces to defend Arkhangelsk and attack the Japanese in the east, as well as build up forces against Army Group Center to distract the Germans from the forces gathering for Operation Uranus. Essentially you have a German High Command who sees that the Soviets are building up in the south, and redeploys troops from AGC and AGN accordingly. Uranus doesn't happen (also because AGS mobile reserves aren't withdrawn to Italy), Stalingrad falls (as it was close to doing anyways, by the end of 1942 the Germans had reached the Volga, occupied 90% of the city, and the Soviets were left in two small pockets). With the forces from Stalingrad freed up and the Soviet counteroffensive defeated (if it was even attempted), the Axis is free to send more forces south to the Caucasus.

Finally, for Moscow the end would be in sight at this point. The Germans are now experienced in Stalingrad-style warfare, and they don't have the drain of Leningrad and Stalingrad to worry about. The Soviets would be scrambling to put enough troops on the line in both the west and the east. The Germans could encircle Moscow and engage in street fighting until the city was taken. Without petroleum from the Caucasus (even if the Germans don't take it entirely the supply line is cut) and from Vladivostok, the Soviet ability to counterattack and conduct defense-in-depth would be severely limited.

Yup, and they'd be right about that, minus the Yamatos and Shokakus you could easily see the British more active and aggressive in the Pacific along with the Americans accelerating the Japanese collapse there. This whole thing would basically be a sacrifice play for Germany's sake that only makes sense in a game-world, IRL the Japanese didn't want to sacrifice their empire for the sake of the German one.

And why would the Americans be involved? In addition, IJA gets preference if they're taking on the USSR. Remember that the main cost to the Japanese would be moving 50km from the Manchurian border (and even then only in some places). From there they have to set up defenses in very favorable terrain, build fortifications and supply depots, all the while maintaining safe distance from Irkutsk to ensure the Soviets can't supply sufficient forces to dislodge them. Meanwhile, the Soviets would be launching futile counteroffensives.
 
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In June-July 1941, 91st, 119th, 166th, 107th, 133rd and 178th Rifle, 57th Tank and 69th Mechanized Divisions were moved from Siberia to Europe.
In August-December, 26th, 21st, 114th, 92nd, 65th, 32nd, 93rd, 78th Rifle, 58th and 60th Tank, 82nd Mechanized Divisions were moved from Siberia to Europe. Another 3, 238th Rifle, 18th and 20th MTN Cav divisions were moved from Central Asia (So definitely nothing to do with Japan). Of these, only 6 arrived in October - late enough, for them to be ordered west after Richard Sorge's message.
But if you are saying, that 18 divisions were instrumental, where does that leave the other ~260 divisions deployed against the Axis?

Im just quoting Wiki.
 

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Im just quoting Wiki.
And I asked for divisions, their number, and where they were from. Did wiki gave all that? Nope. Should have dug deeper.;)
Quick tangent, can you provide a source as to whether those were actual divisions or paper divisions?
20 rifle, 3 cavalry, 2 tank divisions, 30 rifle, 25 tank brigades on 1 July 1943. Total of 1156961 men, 13843 artillery guns and mortars, 2367 tanks, 3949 combat aircraft. Average number of soldiers per division, i.e. total army strength divided by total number of (red army) division equivalents for SU was roughly 25,000 throughout the war. Do the math :)
 

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Not ignoring, and it has nothing to do with it. You're talking about two entirely different timelines. The Soviet force composition in 1942 in this timeline will be radically different than their force composition OTL. You might see a push for Leningrad, or another push for Moscow. Either war, the resolution of one of those fronts would greatly reduce the logistical strain, and at the same time the Germans will have more time and resources to devote to improving logistics.

Here's the problem, you think that 'different timeline' erases all the problems that the Axis faced because suddenly everyone is making better decisions and you conjured up the resources and industrial capacity to equip these guys. None of this was possible through the turning point of a single decision, there are no cheat-codes to turn Japanese light infantry into better equipped infantry capable of taking on the Soviets effectively. Likewise there's no cheat-code to suddenly ease German logistical challenges to allow them to successfully carry out offensive operations of the depth you suggest.

How do they lose Italy? The US isn't in this war, Pearl Harbor didn't happen. Without a direct attack on the United States or invasion of the Americas (remember the Monroe Doctrine), they probably aren't joining the war. It took until 1943 for the Axis to lose Italy OTL and much of that was due to Operation Torch (carried out by the US). Without that, there's just a continuation of leapfrog warfare back and forth across the desert.

The British are absolutely in this war already, lend-lease was already passed and there's a very good chance that the US would be joining by 1942. This is the exact problem with your 'scenario' you pick and choose only the outcomes that are favorable to the axis as if it was viable, war isn't a single player game. Japanese commitment to fighting the Soviets would have accelerated the activities of the western allies, since the only realistic way to get the sort of equipment to fight the Soviets would be to strip the Japanese Navy of the Yamatos and Shokakus you're giving the British a lot more leeway to push into the Pacific on water and land.

I'll concede this, if you want to make every assumption in favor of the axis then naturally the axis will do great, I don't consider these assumptions to be any way realistic but since you won't let them go there's little use in continuing to go around in circles about this.

After all if you're just going to insist that everything the Soviets do must fail yet still be attempted because new timeline there isn't much to discuss.

Meanwhile, the Soviets would be launching futile counteroffensives.
...
while simultaneously launching futile counteroffensives against the Germans.


Wartime is commonly where the cutthroat politics happen throughout history, from Rome to Russia. Just ask Leon Trotsky about murdering political opponents while they're fighting alongside you as allies.

Read, or listen ( history of Rome podcast ) to some Roman history. Killing emperors when they're leading a war effort wasn't really the way things went down. There's much more killing of emperors after key battles or just during regular peacetime then when they're in the middle of a critical campaign, everyone understood the problem of disunity caused by political murder. The critical problem is that whoever does the murdering has no way of insuring that their preferred guy is going to be left in charge and that they're not instead going to be prosecuted for the political murder they just committed. Just ask the murderers of Aurelian who were so aware of this dynamic that they didn't even want to suggest a replacement emperor due to the backlash from those that liked Aurelian.
 
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Here's the problem, you think that 'different timeline' erases all the problems that the Axis faced because suddenly everyone is making better decisions and you conjured up the resources and industrial capacity to equip these guys. None of this was possible through the turning point of a single decision, there are no cheat-codes to turn Japanese light infantry into better equipped infantry capable of taking on the Soviets effectively. Likewise there's no cheat-code to suddenly ease German logistical challenges to allow them to successfully carry out offensive operations of the depth you suggest.

And you fail to comprehend what I'm saying. Japanese light infantry doesn't just turn into a force ready to fight the Soviets, they do so after 4 years of training and building the equipment necessary. German logistic problems are similarly affected. The reduction of pressure allows them to complete operations they were already undertaking. Operation Nordlicht happened, and if it weren't for the coincidental timing of the Soviet counteroffensive it would have likely succeeded. The Germans almost took Stalingrad, and would have if Operation Uranus didn't happen. In this timeline it's unlikely Operation Uranus succeeds, if it is attempted at all. Moscow was well within reach of the German armies, and in this timeline would be much more vulnerable.

The problem with the German logistics is that they were trying to supply three army groups simultaneously, all engaged in active operations. In this timeline that is not the case.

If you ever want to get into the meat of this argument, I'm all ears. Until then maybe take a minute to understand my arguments? None of this happens instantly, it happens because of years of planning on the part of the Japanese and clear cause and effect.

The British are absolutely in this war already

Never said they weren't, lol. Try arguing against what I'm actually saying.

lend-lease was already passed

North Africa is a bottleneck. Material superiority matters little, as Rommel proved.

there's a very good chance that the US would be joining by 1942

Based on what? Why would the US get involved? Where would public support come from? Why would Congress pass a declaration of war, even if Roosevelt wanted one?

since the only realistic way to get the sort of equipment to fight the Soviets would be to strip the Japanese Navy of the Yamatos and Shokakus you're giving the British a lot more leeway to push into the Pacific on water and land.

Do you have any idea how absurd that is? It wouldn't take much to equip sufficient soldiers to push 50 km into Siberia. Over 4 years I'm pretty sure the Japanese can scrape together enough steel to manage that ;)

I don't consider these assumptions to be any way realistic but since you won't let them go there's little use in continuing to go around in circles about this.

I don't let them go because you haven't given any compelling reason why they aren't plausible. Every argument is based off assumptions, and a major part of yours is that the US magically loses its isolationist mentality and declares war on both Japan and Germany by 1942.

After all if you're just going to insist that everything the Soviets do must fail yet still be attempted because new timeline there isn't much to discuss.

Much like the French in WWI, the Soviets need to keep launching counteroffensives, for political reasons if nothing else. It isn't a tenable position for the government to let the enemy occupy vast swathes of land and do nothing. That is why counteroffensives would be attempted. The Soviets didn't really succeed much with their counteroffensives until Uranus, and in this timeline they can't sustain the troop buildup against AGC that would lure the Germans into a false sense of security about AGS. The Germans don't lose the 6th army, can maintain their formations much better than OTL, and once AGN completes the capture of Leningrad (the most plausible first step), many soldiers will be freed up for redeployment to strengthen the line elsewhere.

Read, or listen ( history of Rome podcast ) to some Roman history. Killing emperors when they're leading a war effort wasn't really the way things went down. There's much more killing of emperors after key battles or just during regular peacetime then when they're in the middle of a critical campaign, everyone understood the problem of disunity caused by political murder. The critical problem is that whoever does the murdering has no way of insuring that their preferred guy is going to be left in charge and that they're not instead going to be prosecuted for the political murder they just committed. Just ask the murderers of Aurelian who were so aware of this dynamic that they didn't even want to suggest a replacement emperor due to the backlash from those that liked Aurelian.

The Romans thought nothing of assassinating each other in wartime, and even waged civil wars at the same time as external wars.

Claudius was assassinated in the middle of the Conquest of Britain.
Nero was assassinated in the middle of the Conquest of Britain.
Galba was assassinated during the First Jewish-Roman War. There was a Civil war at the same time).
Vitellius met with a similar fate.
Caracalla was assassinated in the middle of his campaign against the Parthians.
Macrinus and Diadumenian were assassinated during another civil war that took place during the Parthian Wars.
Trebonianus Gallus was assassinated during a civil war that was happening at the same time as a war with the Goths.
Gallienus was assassinated during wars with both the Goths and Alemanni, during yet another civil war.
Florian was assassinated while fighting both the Heruli and a civil war.


I could go on but you get the point. All that is to say that if the situation looks hopeless to the Soviet government, Stalin is gone.
 
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Zinegata

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would the USSR still have come out on top?

I know the Soviets kind of spanked the Japans in the pre-WW2 skirmishes and the overall value of the Far East is not on the same level as that of the western Soviet Union, so it's not as if the Japanese operations would be as critical as the Germans. However, they still could have diverted Soviet troops.

so is it likely or unlikely that a coordinated Nazi Germany/Japanese effort toppled the USSR?

Hugely unlikely. Even if Japan somehow managed to not get completely massacred by heavy Russian artillery and tank forces you're still talking about a massive slog over Siberia with a grand total of one rail line for supply.

That said, historically a huge amount of supplies went through Vladivostok, because Japan allowed Soviet-flagged ships to pass unmolested from America carrying Lend-Lease. So in that sense Japan may have been able to do much more without resorting to an insane bid to march to Moscow over Siberian wastes.
 
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hkrommel

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Hugely unlikely. Even if Japan somehow managed to not get completely massacred by heavy Russian artillery and tank forces you're still talking about a massive slog over Siberia with a grand total of one rail line for supply.

That said, historically a huge amount of supplies went through Vladivostok, because Japan allowed Soviet-flagged ships to pass unmolested from America carrying Lend-Lease. So in that sense Japan may have been able to do much more without resorting to an insane bid to march to Moscow over Siberian wastes.

I doubt anyone is saying the Japanese go for Moscow or even Irkutsk. It's far more likely they move 50km from the Manchurian border and cut the trans-Siberian railroad, meaning Vladivostok, Khabarovsk, and Yakutsk are cut off from supply. The Soviets would be the ones dealing with one railroad to supply them from the nearest supply point (hundreds of kilometers away) while the Japanese would simply extend existing supply lines by about 50 km or so.

I also think part of the assumption here is that the Japanese change their focus before they take on the Soviets (aka it doesn't happen on a whim). The most plausible time for that shift to occur is after the capture of Nanking and Northern Shanxi in 1937, giving them some time to prepare the necessary equipment and training to fight the Soviets.

With that (and the numerical advantage of some 20 divisions in OTL 1941, more if they are planning to invade), I think they win pretty easily and push the Soviets back to defend Irkutsk. I don't think they can push any further, but 50km isn't much.

As for them getting "completely massacred" the Soviets were worse off in terms of casualties at Khalkhin Gol, and their tank forces still mainly consisted of BT-7s and T-26s, and I doubt the priority deployment for the new T-34s will be in the Far East with the Germans on Moscow's doorstep. I think given sufficient preparation the Japanese win fairly quickly, and from there they simply need to hold out while the Soviets launch increasingly desperate attacks along a very poor supply line.
 
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Zinegata

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I doubt anyone is saying the Japanese go for Moscow or even Irkutsk. It's far more likely they move 50km from the Manchurian border and cut the trans-Siberian railroad, meaning Vladivostok, Khabarovsk, and Yakutsk are cut off from supply. The Soviets would be the ones dealing with one railroad to supply them from the nearest supply point (hundreds of kilometers away) while the Japanese would simply extend existing supply lines by about 50 km or so.

I also think part of the assumption here is that the Japanese change their focus before they take on the Soviets (aka it doesn't happen on a whim). The most plausible time for that shift to occur is after the capture of Nanking and Northern Shanxi in 1937, giving them some time to prepare the necessary equipment and training to fight the Soviets.

With that (and the numerical advantage of some 20 divisions in OTL 1941, more if they are planning to invade), I think they win pretty easily and push the Soviets back to defend Irkutsk. I don't think they can push any further, but 50km isn't much.

As for them getting "completely massacred" the Soviets were worse off in terms of casualties at Khalkhin Gol, and their tank forces still mainly consisted of BT-7s and T-26s, and I doubt the priority deployment for the new T-34s will be in the Far East with the Germans on Moscow's doorstep. I think given sufficient preparation the Japanese win fairly quickly, and from there they simply need to hold out while the Soviets launch increasingly desperate attacks along a very poor supply line.

Even if we assume limited ground objectives in the Far East however what would be the point?

Vladivostok is not a major industrial center. It was important because it was a port that received Lend-Lease supplies, but imposing a naval blockade would already accomplish much the same as occupying it.

What you're forgetting moreover is that Japan had to go south. If they didn't then the economy falls apart in a year or two because of the US oil embargo. Withdrawing from China doesn't change this if the Japanese then suddenly invades the Soviet Union - America was again dead-set on intervening in Europe and was already practically on the Allied camp by 1940 even if war hadn't been declared yet. The Reuben James incident very nearly caused a war anyway well before Pearl Harbor; and Gallup surveys show Americans of 1930-40 period had a much more favorable view of the Soviets than the present generation who keep trying to project their Cold War (false) triumphalism.

Japan invading the Soviet Union too just puts them more firmly in the Axis camp and an enemy of America; except this time Japan won't have any Dutch East Indies oil to power any motorized forces for the push up Siberia.

And really, it was the sheer infeasibility of the northern push that caused Japan to turn south. The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was insanity, but it had some very real rational roots and it was picked in large part because every other option was even crazier or would result in the army launching a coup against the government.

And again, you're making the classic mistake of overstating numbers, equipment, and casualties. A close draw is not how the Japanese saw Khalin Gol. They saw it as a complete and utter disaster with entire Divisions routed and one surrounded (and annihilated). This is why they allowed shipments to go to Vladivostok to begin with - Khalin Gol showed them just how badly they would lose without tanks and heavy artillery (production of which they tried and mostly failed to ramp up); and they knew they hadn't made up the difference in 1941.

Moreover, recent documents point to a more even contest in terms of casualties, but quite frankly that's because the IJA loss figures were never subject to the same scrutiny as the recent study of Soviet losses. I doubt that the Japanese would have such a reaction to the defeat if it wasn't much worse than the "official" loss figures would indicate; coming from a nation that had difficulty admitting the Midway losses for a whole year after the battle.
 
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Only 2 years after the Marco Polo Bridge incident, the Americans cut off oil supplies (1939), to force the Japanese to stop warring in China. If peace was made with China a lot of oil problems wouldn't have been as hard.
 
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Amur_Tiger

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And you fail to comprehend what I'm saying. Japanese light infantry doesn't just turn into a force ready to fight the Soviets, they do so after 4 years of training and building the equipment necessary. German logistic problems are similarly affected. The reduction of pressure allows them to complete operations they were already undertaking. Operation Nordlicht happened, and if it weren't for the coincidental timing of the Soviet counteroffensive it would have likely succeeded. The Germans almost took Stalingrad, and would have if Operation Uranus didn't happen. In this timeline it's unlikely Operation Uranus succeeds, if it is attempted at all. Moscow was well within reach of the German armies, and in this timeline would be much more vulnerable.

The problem with the German logistics is that they were trying to supply three army groups simultaneously, all engaged in active operations. In this timeline that is not the case.

If you ever want to get into the meat of this argument, I'm all ears. Until then maybe take a minute to understand my arguments? None of this happens instantly, it happens because of years of planning on the part of the Japanese and clear cause and effect.

So you're not simply having the Japanese make a different decision, you're re-writing history going back at least 4 years with the benefit of hindsight. You're gaming a scenario and pretending that it had any chance of happening. To achieve what you're suggesting you don't need a different decision in the Japanese high command vs the USSR you need a time machine to bring all of this hindsight. This is completely unrealistic and basically impossible.

North Africa is a bottleneck. Material superiority matters little, as Rommel proved.

That's why Rommel was constantly waiting for supplies and replacements, because material superiority matters little?

I suppose you'd like to ignore material superiority given the fact that by Summer 1942 Japan would likely be out of fuel, according to their own estimates.



Based on what? Why would the US get involved? Where would public support come from? Why would Congress pass a declaration of war, even if Roosevelt wanted one?

And Presidents have never guided the US into war of course?


Do you have any idea how absurd that is? It wouldn't take much to equip sufficient soldiers to push 50 km into Siberia. Over 4 years I'm pretty sure the Japanese can scrape together enough steel to manage that ;)

If all you do is go 50km into Siberia then why does this have the disastrous effects you're suggesting on the eastern front vs Germany? Little commitment on the part of the Japanese just brings us back to OTL at a slower pace as the build up of Soviet materiel is slowed by the lack of supplies through Vladivostok.

I don't let them go because you haven't given any compelling reason why they aren't plausible. Every argument is based off assumptions, and a major part of yours is that the US magically loses its isolationist mentality and declares war on both Japan and Germany by 1942.

If you can make the assumption that:

1. Japan can assemble a force sufficient to meaningfully challenge the extant forces in the Russian Far East

2. Germany works out it's supply issues within a reasonable time frame

3. The Soviets are compelled to pursue large counter-offensives that are doomed to failure

4. That Japan won't face a serious set back in it's other strategic areas due to it's concentration of resources against the Soviets

5. That the Germans are going to suddenly become effective enough at urban warfare to capture the major cities of the soviet Union in a reasonable amount of time

Then I can make the assumption that the US, led by a president that wanted to join the war, leading a country that was being slowly but surely convinced in that direction, can get them into the war.

As I said earlier, if you want to assume that everything goes well for the Axis then sure, they can conquer the USSR, but it's unlikely that they'll get that lucky or be able to plan with the sort of hindsight you're using and it's even more unlikely that the Allies are just going to sit there and be predictable. For all your talk of 'this isn't OTL' you seem remarkably reluctant to accept that 'this isn't OTL' means the Allies can adjust their own plans as well.

Here's just a few options they had:

1. Expanded Persian lend-lease route complete with British forces ( from the unharrassed India/Australia/New Zealand ) fighting alongside the Russians on the southern front.

2. More aggressive naval activity on the part of the British in the south Pacific, the Illustrious was already in the area in 1942 and only took time out to participate in operations related to the invasion of Sicily and Salerno. Taking either Formidable or Victorious out of the Torch landings with Unicorn providing support provides a sufficient strike force to threaten Japanese interests, and by 1944 at the latest they've got another two Implacable class to work with as well as the freeing up of the other two Illustrious class by that point in the war. The next year sees 8 Colossus class join the fleet. There's also a British Submarine force available as well as enough battleships to demolish the IJN if it comes to a close fight.

3. Pushing lend-lease through the arctic route in greater quantities, expensive but certainly worth it for any supplies considered critical to keeping the Soviets in the fight

4. Supplies through China, China had already had a war with Japan and few had illusions of what they planned next. Given a simple deal of 'when this is all over Manchuria goes to you' it wouldn't be hard to push supplies through.

5. Scaled down 1941 winter counter-offensive, focus on keeping Leningrad fed and putting some pressure on the Germans directly in front of Moscow. Keep building up the defenses around the capital.

6. Complete Operation Uranus, put limited effort into pushing with Operation Little Saturn. This completes the encirclement of the 6th but refrains from pushing at the remaining front. Holding the line as it were. If the British are present in the south in sufficient numbers commit to Little Saturn along with them.

7. Using US shipping to support lend-lease, this either forces war between Axis partners and the US or makes the arctic route and the Persian routes much safer. Before the outbreak of war the US was already starting to take responsibility for escorts in the Atlantic to a degree, if the Axis chooses to respect nominal US neutrality Roosevelt can be expected to take advantage of that.

The problem with 'anyone can do anything' scenarios is you quickly get so far away from anything with any basis in reality and end up leaning so hard on hindsight that no prediction on outcomes has any real validity. The more you narrow down the possibilities to be closer to the OTL, the more it looks like Japanese efforts against the Soviets would have been a fools errand. If you have to re-write the actions of both Germany and Japan over a multi-year basis while leaning heavily on hindsight this is a pretty good hint that what you're imagining isn't anywhere near realistic.

The Romans thought nothing of assassinating each other in wartime, and even waged civil wars at the same time as external wars.

Claudius was assassinated in the middle of the Conquest of Britain.
Nero was assassinated in the middle of the Conquest of Britain.
Galba was assassinated during the First Jewish-Roman War. There was a Civil war at the same time).
Vitellius met with a similar fate.
Caracalla was assassinated in the middle of his campaign against the Parthians.
Macrinus and Diadumenian were assassinated during another civil war that took place during the Parthian Wars.
Trebonianus Gallus was assassinated during a civil war that was happening at the same time as a war with the Goths.
Gallienus was assassinated during wars with both the Goths and Alemanni, during yet another civil war.
Florian was assassinated while fighting both the Heruli and a civil war.


I could go on but you get the point. All that is to say that if the situation looks hopeless to the Soviet government, Stalin is gone.

Did you read at all what you quoted?

'Killing emperors when they're leading a war effort wasn't really the way things went down. There's much more killing of emperors after key battles or just during regular peacetime then when they're in the middle of a critical campaign'

The only ones killed that were in any way involved in leading a campaign were leading one faction in a civil war that had already broken out, disunity was therefor de facto in the rear view mirror and the elimination of one side actually promoted unity. Assassinating Stalin does just the opposite and very much during a period where the Soviet Union was facing an existential threat.
 
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ConjurerDragon

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Even if we assume limited ground objectives in the Far East however what would be the point?

You mean why invade the USSR as Japan?

Japan joined the anti-Comintern pact being deeply opposed against communism and the USSR while the soviets sent supplies to communiss in China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Japanese_border_conflicts#Soviet_involvement_in_China
Japan historically was opposed even to Imperial Russia as they had conflicting interests in the area which resulted in the 1905 war.
The soviet maritime province and their part of Sachalin would have been the perfect candidates for Japans perimeter around the home islands as the martime province and Wladiwostok are even closer to Japan than Manchuria

Between WW1 and WW2 the japanese military already was in Siberia as part of the allied intervention against the Bolshewiks, so they know the area and infrastructure and points of military interest from firsthand experience of a newer date (until 1922) than Germany knows european Russia from WW1.

Vladivostok is not a major industrial center. It was important because it was a port that received Lend-Lease supplies, but imposing a naval blockade would already accomplish much the same as occupying it.

It would keep the lend lease away too - but once blockading the USSR it means going hostile and then it would mean a very long border to defend including the mongolian-manchurian and soviet-manchurian border. Invading the martime province would shorten that line drastically and at least for that part of the war the japanese navy would be able to support the armies advance in part 1 of that plan
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Hokushin-ron-Map.svg

And with the Hokushin-ron plans Japan actually did consider to invade the USSR which was a favourite plan of the army
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokushin-ron

Even Yamamoto adviced to not go to war with the US and that happened regardless of his advice only because Japan saw no other way to aquire needed oil after the US, UK and the Netherlands together joined the oil embargo against Japan.

What you're forgetting moreover is that Japan had to go south. If they didn't then the economy falls apart in a year or two because of the US oil embargo.

Yes, but that happened only after japanese troops moved into southern Indochina in 1940
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War#Oil_embargo_.28Sino-Japanese_War.29
which was necessary only if Japan would have adopted the Hokushu Nanshin Ron plan (defend in the north, advance to the south).

And again, you're making the classic mistake of overstating numbers, equipment, and casualties. A close draw is not how the Japanese saw Khalin Gol. They saw it as a complete and utter disaster with entire Divisions routed and one surrounded (and annihilated). This is why they allowed shipments to go to Vladivostok to begin with - Khalin Gol showed them just how badly they would lose without tanks and heavy artillery (production of which they tried and mostly failed to ramp up); and they knew they hadn't made up the difference in 1941.

It wasn´t just less tanks and heavy artilley. The overall size of the forces in the Khalkin Gol incident was in favour of the Soviets because Japan chose not to put it´s full weight into supporting the Kwantung Army while the Soviets could use whatever best troops they had available
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol#August:_Soviet_counterattack
It´s something different to escalate a border conflict into a full war while fighing alone than it is while the other side has a major war raging on on the other side of it´s country fighting for it´s survival.

Moreover, recent documents point to a more even contest in terms of casualties, but quite frankly that's because the IJA loss figures were never subject to the same scrutiny as the recent study of Soviet losses. I doubt that the Japanese would have such a reaction to the defeat if it wasn't much worse than the "official" loss figures would indicate; coming from a nation that had difficulty admitting the Midway losses for a whole year after the battle.

Doesnt´t every government lie when it´s about losses it´s forces suffered while the war is going on?
 
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ConjurerDragon

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So you're not simply having the Japanese make a different decision, you're re-writing history going back at least 4 years with the benefit of hindsight.

Isn´t that what discussing alternative history or alternative strategic decisions is all about?
The North vs. South discussion in Japan started years before Pearl Harbour and was not simply: "Mmmh, what to do today on this pretty 7th of Decembre - pearl harbour the US or invade the USSR with exactly the same forces?"

In game context I see it as usual that we would go back as far as the games starting date allows. Be happy, very happy, that we are not discussing Europa Universalis here :D
 
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Amur_Tiger

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Isn´t that what discussing alternative history or alternative strategic decisions is all about?
The North vs. South discussion in Japan started years before Pearl Harbour and was not simply: "Mmmh, what to do today on this pretty 7th of Decembre - pearl harbour the US or invade the USSR with exactly the same forces?"

In game context I see it as usual that we would go back as far as the games starting date allows. Be happy, very happy, that we are not discussing Europa Universalis here :D

If you just want to contemplate the effect of an alternative strategic decision then narrowing down the variables is key to having any sort of historical basis. Changing Japan's decision and things directly related to that ( composition of their army ) is fine, though I'd limit the increase in tanks/guns to 40% at most due to Japan's economic limitations and the pull of other factions. Counting on the added assistance of various things on the eastern front going better then they did historically ( the logistical challenges being handled more responsibly by the Germans, Soviets still launching doomed counter-offensives despite having less strength available for them ) starts to look like we've started with a desired conclusion ( Axis win ) and have tried to reverse engineer required steps. Doing so breaks down any real analysis of likely outcomes as cognitive bias has you looking for opportunities and ignoring pitfalls.
 
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aqvamare

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The problems are numbers, there range is to big.
It is so hard to get soviet numbers for the battle of moskau in december 1941. If you check the german numbers, you get them, a list of overall strength and division names.

For example german wiki to battle of moskau,
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlacht_um_Moskau

If you go to soviet side you can read stuff like this,
- 40% of all combat ready airplanes of soviets
- 700.000 far eastern troops which were deployed from vladiwostok to western front // other source for far east, http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=149223#p1296643 , you can say 400.000 combat ready troops who were moved from far east to western front. And western front in aug-nov 1941 is mostly moskau, which was focus for soviet defence at this time. All other front were "offfensive" to bring germans to less focus on moskau, which worked historcial for the soviets.

And here the numbers soviet counter offensive at 5.des 1941.

"Die sowjetischen Luftstreitkräfte konnten fast 1.400 Flugzeuge einsetzen. Das sowjetische Oberkommando stellte aus der strategischen Reserve etwa 1.060.000 Mann, fast 700 Panzer und eine verstärkte Artillerie zur Verfügung."
Or simply, for the battle of moskau, 40 to 70% of absoulte troops of the strategical reserve for counteroffensive were far eastern troops.

So the question is, without the far eastern troops, would sovietunion counterattack even possible. In history thie 1.000.000 troops pushed bad supllied germans 150km away from moskau. How much less KM would they pushed germans back, if they had only 300.000. to 600.000 troops? If they have pushed germans only 20-30km back, would german spring offensive in 1942 not be operation blau, would it be again operation taifun II or operation nordlich? Far higher focus and far less reorganisation time for troops movements for germans when they focused AG north and middle in 1942, and not south.

One of the reason germans switched to AG south focus and operation blau, was the believe the soviets digged in to heavy in area moskau. Less troops at moskau during the counteroffensive, and OKH would deside different for the war year 1942. And the sucess in the south during 1942 showed, that german army in 1942 was still able to push soviets 400-500km back. Which would be enough to secure Moskau and lenigrad, and cut of murmansk supply route. and vladiwostok supply route woud be cut of by imperial navy and airforce, even without 1 japanese soldier needed on asian ground, when japanes could bomb freely merchant ships.
 
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SchwarzKatze

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Isn´t that what discussing alternative history or alternative strategic decisions is all about?
The North vs. South discussion in Japan started years before Pearl Harbour and was not simply: "Mmmh, what to do today on this pretty 7th of Decembre - pearl harbour the US or invade the USSR with exactly the same forces?"

In game context I see it as usual that we would go back as far as the games starting date allows. Be happy, very happy, that we are not discussing Europa Universalis here :D
It's a major point in the conflicts of the Imperial Way Faction (Kōdōha) and the Control Faction (Tōseiha) as well. The former considers the Soviets to be the all evil and the utmost danger to Japan, while the latter wanted to avoid confrontations with USSR at least until the easy prey China is finished off. The demise of Kōdōha after the February 26th Incident meant that Japan ended up following the latter path.
 

mursolini

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If it wasn´t translated to english it´s probably not worth to read.
That, is not how things work in Russia. But, if you desire, provide a better source in english, that contains the relevant data. I`m sure most sources of such info, are translated to english.
Believing another source does not make one source wrong and WIKI usually has sources listed below it´s articles -)
Wiki doesn`t cite where the data came. Unlike the combat data, the Soviet troop movement on Trans-siberian railroad is well-documented, unless sources of the "article" were writen before Russians opened the archives. The article doesn`t cite where exactly it took the figure. On the other hand, there is Russian article that actually has precise numbers on troops and equipent. The data of the article also matches data in other Soviet sources, while the article in wiki is not about the issue of troops transfer, it barely touches the subject at all.

It is kind of obvious which is a better source. Want to argue, go ahead, get a "better" english source.
Quick tangent, can you provide a source as to whether those were actual divisions or paper divisions? The Soviets had a habit of conjuring divisions from thin air, but some had no more than a brigade's worth of troops and equipment. That's why in most discussions of the Battle of Moscow people talk about the manpower equivalent of how many divisions were raised, since more divisions were raised than actually filled with soldiers and equipment.
Well, I did posted a source, that has the number of troops and equipment.
They had 1.4 millions man, 3k tanks, 3k planes and 8k artillery pieces in 1942. Whatever the equvalent in terms of divisions should be, such a group was more or less on par with Japanese troops occupying Manchuria, if not notably superior.
 
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Loke

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Mursolini, can you present the information in english? Otherwise we wont be able to verify your information/source....