so if Japan opted for USSR instead of US

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Zinegata

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Then you don't know what is. It's been discussed earlier on but given the political goals of the Japanese not being the destruction of Soviet/Mongolian forces but pushing them back to their side of the border, and the aforementioned massive advantage the Soviets had, the Soviets performed extremely poorly. It was a victory, sure, but not crushing. Bagration was a crushing victory, Khalkhin Gol was Pyrrhic.

Pyrrhus was not handing himself medals while the Romans fell on their swords after Asculum.

Again, you are relying entirely on wrong data to make wrong conclusions about the kill ratio of that battle. Challenging others to come up with better figures is merely meaningless posturing that seeks to drive attention away from the real issue: Which is that your methodology is faulty from a start.

No credible military historian is very impressed by kill-ratio figures; for Vietnam quickly put to rest the recent fad of body counts winning wars. No one with knowledge of basic math would calculate ratios comparing apples and oranges either; which is exactly the case in your misguided attempt to compare the accurate Russian figures with the completely contrived Japanese ones. Really, the Japanese wouldn't even admit that they lost 3,000 men captured and claimed they only had 1,000 missing; and your kill ratio calculations are based on losses from but one Japanese hospital.

People with the correct methodology will not bother calculating the kill ratios using such obviously wrong figures and judge the battles based on its general course and results on both sides. And it's worth noting that even Japanese historians see Khalkin Gol as a crushing Japanese defeat. No amount of denial or waving around of bad data will change that no matter how much you try to talk past these realities.
 
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Guaro90

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I repeat the question for those who are parting for a soviet victory: are you going to make the USSR escalete the war with japan? If yes when? In 38-39-40 or 41? Or are you all thinking about the battle in east when barbarossa starts? If you are thinking about all the possibilities than specify when you make a guess about the engagment between IJA and Red Army, becasue is like talking about the German Army in 38 and 41 thinking they had the same combat abilities.
 
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D Inqu

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Then you don't know what is. It's been discussed earlier on but given the political goals of the Japanese not being the destruction of Soviet/Mongolian forces but pushing them back to their side of the border,
I don't know what you think you know, but the July assault by Japan was a fairly typical double-pronged attack aimed and encircling and destroying the opposing force. The only difference was: they failed.
And for all the "back to their side of the border" propaganda, the Japanese were the invaders and the battle took place on Mongolian territory
and the aforementioned massive advantage the Soviets had
Just because you mention it does not make it true. The Jpanese failed to use the massive advanage thye had in the early stages of the conflict, and crumbled as soon as soviets got theirs.
Also, as has been covered earlier in this thread, the IJA OTL had an advantage of at least few hundred thousand men over the Soviet Far Eastern Theater up until 1943. This advantage would certainly be expanded upon, as would a material advantage, should Japan shift its focus northward (which, as established earlier, would most likely happen sometime around early 1936 or late 1937).
As has been covered earlier in this thread, you can't just pretend that Japan openly builds up for 5 years while the Soviets sit on their hands and do nothing different.
They didn't hold the field on the Japanese side of the border
So did know that the claim about "pushing Soviet/Mongolian forces back to their side of the border" was a lie. Why did you write earlier then.
the Japanese were planning a counterattack
They could plan many things, but with the 23rd division wiped out and the other units shattered, they essentially needed a whole new army.
 
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hkrommel

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And for all the "back to their side of the border" propaganda, the Japanese were the invaders and the battle took place on Mongolian territory

As I recall the conflict was started when Mongolian cavalry encountered Manchukuoan soldiers on the Manchukuo side. I could be wrong but it's really irrelevant to the discussion at hand. The political orders were also to "expel the invaders," which was the point I'm making regarding the political objectives that Tokyo wanted. They (nominally, at least) wanted no Soviet/Mongolian forces on their side of the border.

Just because you mention it does not make it true. The Jpanese failed to use the massive advanage thye had in the early stages of the conflict, and crumbled as soon as soviets got theirs.

Yet the Soviets took far worse losses of equipment. That's all I'm pointing out. I'm simply saying it was a Pyrrhic victory, in which the victor took more losses than the loser. Near equal manpower losses, but far more equipment losses. It was hardly a Uranus or Bagration-like operation, in other words.

As has been covered earlier in this thread, you can't just pretend that Japan openly builds up for 5 years while the Soviets sit on their hands and do nothing different.

Here's the thing: the Soviets were already building large amounts of equipment for their land forces and had a land-based, motorised focus. The Japanese did not. The Japanese changing things would simply put more pressure on the Soviets to deploy more formations to the east, which would severely weaken them in the west.

The point that you're missing here is that obviously the Soviets would react, but their reaction wouldn't make a difference. They already were producing the materiel and raising formations for a conventional land war. The Japanese were not. OTL the Japanese went with light infantry equipment that could be easily transported through poor terrain. A shift in Japanese focus would cause a huge difference in the composition of their forces, but Soviet composition and doctrine would remain the same, since it was already the best they could do given the situation.

So did know that the claim about "pushing Soviet/Mongolian forces back to their side of the border" was a lie. Why did you write earlier then.

Because the battle started when Mongolian units encountered Manchukuoan units on the Manchukuo side IIRC. That doesn't mean the bulk of the battle happened there. I really don't get why this inconsequential point is so important to you.

They could plan many things, but with the 23rd division wiped out and the other units shattered, they essentially needed a whole new army.

When did I claim the counterattack would do anything? You're arguing against a point that was never made. All I said was that the battle was not over, and ended for political reasons rather than military ones.
 

agentgb

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The russians weren't keen about opening another front with the japs early on (so much that they didn't declare war on japan until 1945), they could barely withstand the germans, the double edged sword was, that had japan marched into russia, the allies would have went unopposed in the pacific/asia, and could instead divert there efforts to knocking out the germans. Either way, if the Russians had won or not, i'd imagine russia death toll would have been considerably higher.

If the japs had used there similar cunning like that at pearl harbour, and securing of multiple islands at the outbreak of war between the US, i'd say they would have covered alot of rural russia before they had met any real resistances, due to the lion share of russia forces fighting germany. Then theres the japaneses fighting prowness, not to mention the japs had beaten the russians previously prior to ww2. They may even have built a railroad through rural russia to support there logistics.
 
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Guaro90

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Also remeber that tokyo was against a war escalation at that time and forbid the JAAF to bombard enemy base and locked all the other division in manchuria on site on the fear of an escalation, on the other hand USSR wanted to have a win vs the japanese so they managed to build a huge force redeploying all the force needed from other front, so calling an example to how the conflict wuold have gone is Not that good imho. And remeber for all who are supporting an easy victory for the USSR is that for nearly 60 k troops zhukov used from various source from 4K (lol) to 20K trucks to supply them for a month for a single counter attack becouse the supply depot was 600 km away so you think that more than 1 milion man could have been supplied well? A full commitment from both side would have been a bloody war and not a easy one, for none. I'm supporting the japanese intervention in 41, so after the board incident they realise they need more trucks, more tank, bett AT, at least with their 47 mm, more planes like OTL, but instead of naval building they go for land equiment. They don't catch up with the soviets in term of quantity but for quality the gape is reduced, maybe they can lay down more railroads and build up more supplies, in 41 we ahve also the last purge trail who eliminate all the major official of the east, so... How is gonna end the engagment witha full commitment of japan leadership and armed force with the red army in the shapes it was? Imho we wuold have had a slower and bloodier invasion compared to the west but the objective are way easier to achive, vladivostock, kurily and karafuto, in days or weeks, and after that a full commitment in mongolia with the objective of the baikal region, an objective that wuold have been way harder to achive for supplies issue, also becouse the soviets wuold have way less supplies issue shortening the distance to their inner base, the bigger what if is that the JAAF is able to achive full air superiority, tha the east for the soviet is lost. They baikal front maybe is holdable, i don't know how the slviet leaderships is gonna react, the true threat is the west , but a major loss even in the east could compromise stalin and his enturage. From a war effort point of view we have land lease cut in half or more becouse the persian corridory is active from 1942, nearly a milion and half man that consume supplies at combat rate instead of garrison rate, so they need ammunition, tank, trucks, food, artillery pieces, and manpower, you can still neglet to send there newer tank but if so you have not a huge equimpent advantage on the japanese, no t-34, it means that the 47 mm at gun can do his job and if the JAAF has air superiority the single railways in gonna get smashed multiple times, so a loss in the east is imho fairly possible. The question now is, that would ahve changed barbarossa? The ost of the land lease, the inability to recruit the same amount of men from the civilian economy, rhe manpower usage on the east, the supplies consumption increased for a the east army group where enough to compromise the battle of Moscow( i think that germany wuoldn't have conquered moskow anywqys) , or more plausable the ability of the soviets to lunch the winter counteroffensive ( more plausible imho)? Without a comuter offensive maybe we can have a full commitment on leningrad, falled the city, AGN can redeploy to the center or push to north anc close archangels lend lease, after that we have moskow than can be surrounded, with the railways hub of moskow isolated, the south is in trouble, and by 1942 fall we have the inabilty from the urss to lunch any major counter offensive and i think is we can think of the USSR capitualtion imminent.