So I watched the twitch stream of Charlemagne AND I WAS SHOCKED!

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

eleinvisible

seldom serious
26 Badges
Jul 23, 2009
996
43
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • March of the Eagles
  • Magicka
  • Iron Cross
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For The Glory
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
Yes. There was a Celtic culture in Germany, quite an advanced one at that, which was then destroyed and replaced by more backwards Germanic peoples.
Archaeologically backwards? Or what do you mean? Clearly the Germanics were better at the only thing that mattered in the era.
 

Amallric

Field Marshal
4 Badges
May 18, 2008
4.423
267
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
I remember the Celts had proto-cities, constructed trade routes etc. The Germans were living in small communities in the woods with just a little agriculture and animal husbandry.
 

Arilou

Irken Tallest
102 Badges
Aug 24, 2002
8.181
688
Visit site
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • King Arthur II
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
I remember the Celts had proto-cities, constructed trade routes etc. The Germans were living in small communities in the woods with just a little agriculture and animal husbandry.

That's not true at all. The germans had fairly large settlements, and even road networks. (just like the celts)
 

JodelDiplom

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Apr 5, 2013
4.512
19.230
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
That's not true at all. The germans had fairly large settlements, and even road networks. (just like the celts)
Please tell me more about those.

AFAIK there were no towns in "Germanic Germany" until the early middle ages. The only pre-medieval town I know, of which doesn't trace its root (as a town) to the Romans, is Haithabu.

In the books I read, until the middle ages the Germanic people only built "Haufendörfer" i.e. villages consisting of a loose collection of something like one or two dozen houses at most. (Of course different conditions prevailed where they conquered ex Roman lands.)

During the celtic period / Bronze age, on the other hand, you had forts and little towns surrounding those forts, with an archeological record attesting to rich aristocrats living in those forts.
 
Last edited:

trybald

Soon...
67 Badges
Apr 14, 2008
1.176
355
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
AFAIK there were no towns in "Germanic Germany" until the early middle ages. The only pre-medieval town I know, of which doesn't trace its root (as a town) to the Romans, is Haithabu.

Did it even exist before early 800s? AFAIK the first mention of Hedeby comes from the time when Godfred of Denmark resettled there merchants from ruined Obodrite city of Reric.

Academics might argue on the specifics, but generally speaking, where else could the German-speaking Goths come from, if not from the area inhabited by Germans? At worst, the area of German ethnogenesis could be slightly revised to include not only Southern Sweden but also the mouth of Vistula, which is not exactly half the world away. And IIRC Wielbark ended up disappearing pretty much completely at some point between the establishment of the Gothic kingdom and the migration of Slavs, so I don't find it particularly strange. It's still a migration, it's just that some "stragglers" were still around in the Vistula area while the "vanguard" already established the Cherniachov polity on the lower Dnieper.

It's debatable whether Goths actually were at lower Vistula. It makes much more sense for them to live at the mouth of Daugava and then move along it into the Dneper drainage. Assuming that Goths traveled long rivers, it just doesn't sound feasible to "jump" from Vistula drainage into Dneper or Dnester drainages, since they are separated by rather difficult terrain.

The mouth of Vistula was, according to Ptolemy, settled by Ouletai. Ouletai are very likely the same tribe that latter reappeared in more or less the same area as Veletes.
 
Last edited:

Amallric

Field Marshal
4 Badges
May 18, 2008
4.423
267
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
This is the first time I ever hear something like that. Is that some kind of nationalistic theory, to prove that "Poland" was always inhabited only by Poles, and certainly not by the pesky Germans who dared to lay claim to the mighty Polish Gdansk?
 

trybald

Soon...
67 Badges
Apr 14, 2008
1.176
355
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
Veletes weren't the ancestors of Poles to begin with and were themselves of diverse origin with Baltic and Germanic elements clearly observable. So whatever you want to imply to me, you are wrong. Also Gdańsk was founded in 10th century, well after the migration period.

It wasn't me who first proposed the Daugava - Dneper route. Like almost everything relating to the Goths it's a conjecture, albeit a well grounded one. It highlights the difficulty of migration between the Vistula drainage into the East with either Pripyat marshes or Carpathians along the way.
 

Jorsalfar

A full village idiot and a half wumao
43 Badges
Mar 18, 2004
430
1.360
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Surviving Mars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
To accurately place a tribe far from the Roman border only based on Graeco-Roman sources would not be a good idea. What can be said for sure is that the Wielbark culture were present at Vistula, and it is likely that the Wielbark culture has links to the Goths given that they practiced the same burial rites (after AD 100) and used similar clothing for women. Which tribes, other than the Goths, that adopted the Wielbark culture is however not known, and I think it is unlikely that we will ever know for sure.
 

Kadanz

Drive-By Memer
20 Badges
Sep 19, 2011
2.379
5.378
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines
EVERYONE came from Africa (supposedly), the question is where did the specific tribe that split off and became Goths come from?

ancient-aliens.jpg