You also could say Southern Swedish Gotland is named after the Geats and not the Goths...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geats
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You also could say Southern Swedish Gotland is named after the Geats and not the Goths...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geats
Multi-region is just a variation of Out of Africa anyway, since all the other kinds of non-African hominids that homosapiens may have bred with were just descended from earlier hominid migrations out of Africa. This is why to be exact academics had to rename the theory to "recent single-origin hypothesis".
Most immigrant peoples are descended from locals as well. Its not wrong for a Serb to say that their ancestors have lived in Serbia for thousands of years, its just wrong to say that those ancestors all called themselves Serbs since its just as likely that the Serbs were originally a Samartian tribe rather than a slavic one.
You also could say Southern Swedish Gotland is named after the Geats and not the Goths...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geats
I always thought Gotland was named after goats... :wacko:
HAHA, Ok. Even if that is true (which most likely it is), what's your point?
Yeah and over time (thousands and thousands, yes I mean literally THOUSANDS, of years "North of the Sahara/Middle East/Europe/Northern Europe/Scandinavia")those people in Scandinavia (Southern Sweden, Southern Norway, and Denmark) developed/evolved into their own separate group of people called "Germanics". And those Germanic people eventually started migrating out of "Scandinavia" and settling in "Germania" on the continent. Eventually those Germanic tribes basically created the modern nation states of Western Europe and were the power who vacuumed up/conquered the deteriorating Western Roman Empire.
Surprised you don't know this stuff being from Sweden. I recommend you read the Early Germans by Malcolm Todd. (PS he is using "German" in his title to mean Germanic peoples)
Thank you!
Exactly, obviously they changed since when they left Southern Scandinavia (since someone gets their panties in a bunch if you call it Sweden LOL) and became "East Germanic people".
No, historians do not know for a fact that Goths came from Gotland. That's just an easy and traditional explanation for their origin, based on accounts written by medieval "historians" who made up most of the things they wrote and one single coincidence between the words Goth and Gotland (and also 10 million other places with similar names), but it's highly debatable and not unanimously agreed, not at all, amongst the academia today. The consensus, roughly, is that they came from somewhere, and that somewhere could be a lot of different places, maybe even Gotland, but there's not enough evidence to conclusively prove any of those origins.
So, we have 2 PDS devs catiously stating that the origin of the Goths is debated and they could have come from different places, which is actually a pretty good version of what historians think about the issue, and then we have an overreaction by people who base most of their history knowledge on Wikipedia. Don't be so fast on jumping to correct someone when you're not absolutely sure that you're right.
So, we have 2 PDS devs catiously stating that the origin of the Goths is debated and they could have come from different places, which is actually a pretty good version of what historians think about the issue, and then we have an overreaction by people who base most of their history knowledge on Wikipedia. Don't be so fast on jumping to correct someone when you're not absolutely sure that you're right.
As I said... Most names from Southern Sweden are from the Geats... Some believe they are the same as the Goths... But it's not sure (and unlikely because they were Norse Germanic and Goths were East germanic.
Yes. In reality it was mostly a confusen between the Goths and the Geats...
History isn't very important in everyday life. If you're shocked because someone doesn't know something so insignificant as, say, the Five Good Emperors ... then knowing history doesn't make you any less of an idiot. Lolz. Besides, their job isn't to be historical experts, they have people specifically for that.
The point being that just because some cultures and medieval historians claim heritage from Scandinavia doesn't make it true. Even the Vandals claim heritage from Scandinavia in their scriptures which is also very doubtful. Are you as keen to believe them as well? What's next? Are the Huns also from Scandinavia then should someone stumble across a word that may remind you of the word Scandinavia? When will this nationalistic fabrication of history end?
I don't think people can fathom how vastly underpopulated Scandinavia was a the time. There weren't enough people around to support a migration of tribes and they had little reason to do so...
This discussion is silly because there is no evidence to support the claim. And those who do, do so through dubious sources.
I don't think people can fathom how vastly underpopulated Scandinavia was a the time. There weren't enough people around to support a migration of tribes and they had little reason to do so...
This discussion is silly because there is no evidence to support the claim. And those who do, do so through dubious sources.
As I also stated on this thread, very true. I still believe they arn't from Scandinavia. The closest i would ever put their origins at is the Prussia-Poland area. But im sticking with Western Russia. I believe Goths are a mix of Slavs and German people in the region and they ended up choosing a Germanic language with their own dialect (Gothic). There's barely any evidence that they were in the Prussia-Poland area to begin with, any artifacts couldve been taken their over time.
Some quick research into the linguistics behind it:
Goth - the English word - is from the Middle English word 'Gothes' or 'Gotes' which is partly descended from the Late Latin word 'Gothi' and the Old English word 'Goþa.'
The original Proto-Germanic root of 'Goþa' has been determined to be 'geutaną' which means 'to pour.'
I couldn't find anything about the etymology Västergötland or Gotland, but while it's possible it's named after the Gothic tribes who might have once inhabited the area, it's also possible it's merely a cognate and that the previous inhabitants of that region were Germans who enjoyed pouring things.
Wait a minute... I typed all that just to say "possibly."
I need a hobby.
A few thoughts. First, isn't it pretty widely accepted that Germanic culture/language started in Scandinavia and branched out from there? The Nordic Bronze age stuff is basically all southern Scandinavia (the peninsula) and Denmark; later, the pre-Roman iron age for northern Europe penetrates into lower Saxony, Holland, and Pomerania. Second, how are we determining when a group became that group? One of the names associated with the East Slavs in the Ukraine is the "Eastern Polans" and, presumably, the Slavs were once one unified-ish people. So, who's to say that the Geats/Gutes and Goths weren't kin before the linguistic drift that created the East/West/North divide among the Germanics?
Far as I can tell, saying the Goths were from Scandinavia (or Gotland) is about as accurate as saying they weren't.... it really depends on how clenched you keep your anus.
Far as I can tell, saying the Goths were from Scandinavia (or Gotland) is about as accurate as saying they weren't.... it really depends on how clenched you keep your anus.
Pretty much. Historical record on the Goths is thin on the ground, but there's plenty of evidence that they were a Germanic people, the Germanic Source is Scandanavia...
They would have had to have moved over to the Black Sea First Century AD or so
That's basically what this thread SHOULD be about, is when they claimed their own identity. Not their "Proto-Stage" of origins. That is unknown and any scholars who say "ITS HERE, ITS HERE" *Points to Map* are idiots. The one fact every historian knows 100% sure about is that the Goths did at one point settle down in Ukraine and Crimea. That's the earliest we can trace them with hardcore physical evidence. Anything earlier than that is only based on their "Germanic Language" origins.
But to be fair they were a MIGRATING tribe, they adopted to the locations they traveled and the Gothic people were known as a fact to be one of the most ADOPTING tribes out of all the migrations that took place in the 4-5th century. They adopted Roman culture, they changed religions at least 3 times. Whos to say they DIDNT come from Russia and adopted a Germanic Language????? Prove me wrong! I dare you.
Now back to my point, Goths didnt emerge as their own Identity untill they settled down in Ukraine and were forced to migrate when the Hunnic Empire threatened to take them over. Before that, its truly unknown.
I'm currently reading the decline and fall of the Roman empire by Edward Gibbon and it just so happens that I recently stumbled on the chapter that deals with the origin of the Goths:
http://books.google.nl/books?id=aLcWAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA246&lpg=PA246&dq=odin+sarmatia&source=bl&ots=1Zftr2_CL1&sig=G0KihKvZoCbq8C5HiMdJ9BtI6u0&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=48AAVM_yIoegyAO_koDQBg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=odin%20sarmatia&f=false
All of this of course remains (fancy) speculation yet I must admit that my imagination was/is indulged by such a portrayal of events that lead to the Goths eventually ending up in South Sweden.
P.S. read the letter "f" as an "s" in the source. It helps
http://books.google.nl/books?id=aLcWAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA246&lpg=PA246&dq=odin+sarmatia&source=bl&ots=1Zftr2_CL1&sig=G0KihKvZoCbq8C5HiMdJ9BtI6u0&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=48AAVM_yIoegyAO_koDQBg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=odin%20sarmatia&f=false
All of this of course remains (fancy) speculation yet I must admit that my imagination was/is indulged by such a portrayal of events that lead to the Goths eventually ending up in South Sweden
.P.S. read the letter "f" as an "s" in the source. It helps