So I watched the twitch stream of Charlemagne AND I WAS SHOCKED!

[smeggy]

Eden. Next.

Does it really matter? There are people making the game, people coding, people doing the historic research. They where also wrong in the start on the Ummayad and Abbasids, it though that was the mistake of them all, but hell, it sounded like Johan has CK2 back on track again, that is his job, not to know details.

 

[Summercat]

Most likely the other way around since humans emigrated to the north, not from the north.

The Goths were a Germanic people who moved from southern Sweden to what's now Pommerania, and then from there to the Black Sea, then split between the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths. Visigoths ended up in Spain. Ostrogoths ended up in Italy, and later conquered by the Lombards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths

Modern Scholarship has some dispute, but it appears to be the majority consensus.

 

[Phibs]

The two Paradox developers playing the game did not know where the Goths originated from, offering wild guesses of "Middle Italy" and the even more ridiculous "the steppes". Well, the Goths did eventually end up in Italy, but to put them as starting there is simply laughable. What's more: Scholars believe that the Goths came from Gotland and Vester/Ostergautland in Sweden, which is where Paradox is based. Goths were Germanic invaders from Sweden.

Did I watch the same stream?

They were talking about the visigoths afaik.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths#mediaviewer/File:Visigoth_migrations.jpg

 

[Cardinal Sin]

I really thought it was quite bad how they said the Umayyad caliphate was still a massive state encompassing all of the Islamic world - even though in the menu the Abbasid guy clearly showed up as the caliph, and it was made clear that Abdalrahman only ruled Spain.

 

[LumberKing]

I really thought it was quite bad how they said the Umayyad caliphate was still a massive state encompassing all of the Islamic world - even though in the menu the Abbasid guy clearly showed up as the caliph, and it was made clear that Abdalrahman only ruled Spain.

That's cause the guy's an idiot. It's not the first time he said something stupid (Nestorian comment during RoI, and confusing Charlemagne for Napoleon).

 

[Voy]

The Goths were a Germanic people who moved from southern Sweden to what's now Pommerania, and then from there to the Black Sea, then split between the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths. Visigoths ended up in Spain. Ostrogoths ended up in Italy, and later conquered by the Lombards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths

Modern Scholarship has some dispute, but it appears to be the majority consensus.

There is no such consensus I tell you, most historians (not only the Swedish Historians) dispute this pride seeking claim of conquest. It was most likely just an Eastern German Tribe on the Continent. Sweden didn't have any migration from the country during Great Migrations because it was underpopulated and only in a few isolated areas around the coast from what we know and had no reason to go elsewhere. You can't just wave a Wikipedia page around and claim that you're right. You should look on the sources of what you post it's speculations not fact. Such connections have not been found in Southern Sweden ever. Trust me, it has been debated in Sweden a long time and it's all speculations and interpretation of old languages and texts from Jordanes Getica and Isidore of Seville. The stories have been viewed as myths and fiction ever since it was brought up in modern history as well as the hilarious interpetation that the Goths came from Sweden which have never had a numerous population since after the Middle ages. Just as with any old chronicle or "source" it should be read with great criticism because making up history so that it flatter a people or family was kinda the point of writing them. ^^

 

[Carewolf2]

The two Paradox developers playing the game did not know where the Goths originated from, offering wild guesses of "Middle Italy" and the even more ridiculous "the steppes". Well, the Goths did eventually end up in Italy, but to put them as starting there is simply laughable. What's more: Scholars believe that the Goths came from Gotland and Vester/Ostergautland in Sweden, which is where Paradox is based. Goths were Germanic invaders from Sweden.

No scholars do NOT believe that. There might be a connection but at this point the connection is hard to prove as most of the evidence was manufactured in Sweden in the 18th century. The big thing against it is that the Goths were east germanic people, not north germanic, which makes it rather unlikely.

In theory east germanic could have developed around Gotland, since North and West split in Denmark and North Germany, but there is no evidence that Gotlanders have different grammar or different linguistic roots than Danish and Swedish.

 

[Dreadlord]

The two Paradox developers playing the game did not know where the Goths originated from, offering wild guesses of "Middle Italy" and the even more ridiculous "the steppes". Well, the Goths did eventually end up in Italy, but to put them as starting there is simply laughable. What's more: Scholars believe that the Goths came from Gotland and Vester/Ostergautland in Sweden, which is where Paradox is based. Goths were Germanic invaders from Sweden.

Associating Goths with Germans was a 19th century trend because of some lingustic similarities were discovered that time. If lingustic or grammatical similarities denotes Cultural or Ethnical association, iteration or continuation, then Goths are German, Goths came from Sweden then all Sweden is German. Also all Hungarians are Turk and All Finland is Siberian.

Deepnote: Before all of you shouting at me, very much pun intended. Don't chew me

 

[Flavius Ricimer]

I highly recommend Jordanes' Getica to anyone vaguely interested in the Goths. He claims that they came from the island of 'Scanzia' in two boats, presumably referring to Scandinavia and the later division of the Goths to Visigoths and Ostogoths. Perhaps the Scandinavia link was included to establish some kind of cultural tie to the Varangians, or just to name a place the Byzantines reading his history would have heard about.

Jordanes comes out with a lot of BS about the Goths too, like how they were involved in the Trojan wars. But some of his history must have some bearing on the truth, particularly when it comes to the later Amali family.

I've always enjoyed the historical nugget of Don Pelayo, the Visigothic noble who gave rise to the great kingdom of Asturias.

 

[unmerged(136365)]

The Goths were a Germanic people who moved from southern Sweden to what's now Pommerania, and then from there to the Black Sea, then split between the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths. Visigoths ended up in Spain. Ostrogoths ended up in Italy, and later conquered by the Lombards.

Ostrogothic Italy was conquered by Greeks, not by Longobards. They came later on.

 

[Summercat]

Ostrogothic Italy was conquered by Greeks, not by Longobards. They came later on.

Yeah, the Ostrogothic kingdom got wrecked by Belisarius and Narses, but that conquest didn't hold.

I think I skipped for brevity :3

 

[Lysistrata]

I was more bothered by the fact that I had to sit through a 90 minute livestream to learn information that I could've absorbed in a couple of minutes. I don't know why the devs start prattling inanely, going off on tangents, and generally start acting like kids with ADHD when they're presented with a mic and camera. Damn it, if you're that distractable and incapable of focusing in a livestream, why don't you just make a dev diary instead?

 

[Ruskhan]

Wrong! They originally came from Africa!

 

[Ezumiyr]

They didn't know who the Merovingians are? And they make a Charlemagne DLC? Seriously???

 

[Summercat]

I was more bothered by the fact that I had to sit through a 90 minute livestream to learn information that I could've absorbed in a couple of minutes. I don't know why the devs start prattling inanely, going off on tangents, and generally start acting like kids with ADHD when they're presented with a mic and camera. Damn it, if you're that distractable and incapable of focusing in a livestream, why don't you just make a dev diary instead?

I had ADHD. I like my information quickly. Normally watching streams and listening to audio and watching video is annoying to me, because it's like reading one word per second and no faster.

This stream was bad and it was painful to force myself to watch it - because I was right, there's apparently no good summery/writeup of what's going on, just a shitton of threads.

 

[Mafiabrett]

I did extensive research on the Goths for a school project once. What I remember from it is that like alot of migrating tribes from the 4-5th century is that their origins are truly unknown. The most reliable sources say they came from the Russia area, and they started migrating west due to many reasons but the main reason was the Hunnic Empire.. the Goths split into two at this point, the ones who stayed behind and the ones who migrated the ones who stayed behind are the ones who we know as the Crimean Goths nowadays. The ones that migrated west settled on the Danube river just north of the ERE. After that the history is pretty set in stone.. they worked as Mercs for Rome, horrible relations led to them invading the Western half and becoming the Ostrogoths in Italy and Visigoths in Iberia.

 

[Chattus]

By the way: did they say something about Crimean Goths being in the game?

 

[Voy]

I did extensive research on the Goths for a school project once. What I remember from it is that like alot of migrating tribes from the 4-5th century is that their origins are truly unknown. The most reliable sources say they came from the Russia area, and they started migrating west due to many reasons but the main reason was the Hunnic Empire.. the Goths split into two at this point, the ones who stayed behind and the ones who migrated the ones who stayed behind are the ones who we know as the Crimean Goths nowadays. The ones that migrated west settled on the Danube river just north of the ERE. After that the history is pretty set in stone.. they worked as Mercs for Rome, horrible relations led to them invading the Western half and becoming the Ostrogoths in Italy and Visigoths in Iberia.

I'd support that claim, it's the most realistic one.

By the way: did they say something about Crimean Goths being in the game?

Yeah, they're not in the game.

 

[riadach]

The two Paradox developers playing the game did not know where the Goths originated from, offering wild guesses of "Middle Italy" and the even more ridiculous "the steppes". Well, the Goths did eventually end up in Italy, but to put them as starting there is simply laughable. What's more: Scholars believe that the Goths came from Gotland and Vester/Ostergautland in Sweden, which is where Paradox is based. Goths were Germanic invaders from Sweden.

Ssssh, it's better they don't know.

 

[Phibs]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths#mediaviewer/File:Visigoth_migrations.jpg

To quote myself