So I got screwed out of my Flanders... WAD?

[InnocentIII]

When you pressed the claim the information in the tooltip says, just as someone pointed out, that he will only become your vassal if he's of your dynasty or if he's a de jure vassal of yours. In this case he was neither so the end result is the correct one. The error here is the last line in the pop up which is clearly wrong - and has now been fixed. What you could do if you had wanted him as your vassal is to give him land within the de jure part of the HRE and then press the claim. In tat case he would have ended up as your vassal.

Good to know. The main thing is that the information be presented to the player clearly.

For what it's worth, I'd include in the Tooltip "WILL NOT BECOME YOUR VASSAL"

or even

"WILL NOT BECOME YOUR VASSAL UNLESS YOU GRANT HIM LAND BEFORE CLICKING THIS BUTTON, SO DO THAT RIGHT NOW AND COME BACK AND THEN CLICK HERE".

The Inconclusive Peace events are frustratingly unclear about what just happened. As King of Croatia I was DoWed by Hungary on behalf of a (very recently created!) pretender to a Count title. I was very nearly in a position to demand that he relinquish the claim and take the full prestige hit, when I got Inconclusived for no apparent reason. Maybe the Count died, maybe the Byz Emperor cut a deal without me? If a player has that happen in a couple important wars it's going to drive some people crazy.

Have the rules play out however they're supposed to play out, but the more arcane they get, the more you're gonna have to give it to us in Captain Dummy talk.

 

[Vae_Victis]

Would it be enough to give him a random barony within the du jure borders and even when he became Duke of Flanders, he would still be a vassal and his successors remain vassals too?

 

[HolisticGod]

All,

For those asking why the manual doesn't explain every last thing, keep in mind that it had to be printed well in advance and that for a game this complex a manual would have to novel-length.

More importantly, there is something to be said for learning by doing. The mechanics should be documented, but exactly what will happen when you push every button? That's half the fun of playing.

Especially if it can get you excommunicated.

 

[Captain Gars]

All,

For those asking why the manual doesn't explain every last thing, keep in mind that it had to be printed well in advance and that for a game this complex a manual would have to novel-length.

More importantly, there is something to be said for learning by doing. The mechanics should be documented, but exactly what will happen when you push every button? That's half the fun of playing.

Especially if it can get you excommunicated.

Yes, keeping the printed manual fully up to date would mean that you have to stop changing anything on the game a couple of months before release.

 

[Sir Leningrad]

My question is, why is it necessary that he has land in your de jure kingdom to continue being your vassal? Which is the motive that made you decide he would leave your kingdom/empire if he gained more land or more concretely a duchy outside your kingdom?

 

[unmerged(241678)]

All,

For those asking why the manual doesn't explain every last thing, keep in mind that it had to be printed well in advance and that for a game this complex a manual would have to novel-length.

And that is the reason, why there are manuals in the first place...or so I thought. Whenever a complex system needs to be explained tooltips alone dont provide enough space and tutorials are mostly to explaine how to play the game (controls, screens, ect.), not to be a rulebook. I have more than a dozen games here that have manuals with close to 100 pages. 10-20 with basic infos like EULA, installation, controls, etc. and the rest with all those infos that help understand the game, even if they are not neccasry to basicly "play" the game (clicking the buttons and see what will happen).

More importantly, there is something to be said for learning by doing. The mechanics should be documented, but exactly what will happen when you push every button? That's half the fun of playing.

Especially if it can get you excommunicated.

I guess everyone considers different things to be "fun". Having save&reloads every few ingame month/years during the first 5 play-throughs until I finally figure out the game and can start playing it isnt what I would call "fun". The most important thing in a strategy game is imho to make decisions based on the available ingame information and game rules you have and try to use theses to your advantage to achive your goals. Missing informations that lead to the opposite of what you intended to do (going to war for a claim and then end up loosing land even though you won the war) are not a fun-lottery-feature but the lack of documented game rules making it impossible to make an informed intelligent desicion (imagine you play monopoly without knowing you can build hotels!)

Edit: Almost forgot..
As William the bastard I had the opposit happening. When the 20 years of the demo came to an end I invted some guy with a claim on one of the welsh counties (welsh de-jure) and pressed it just for the prestige score. Supprisingly he became my vassal even though he was not of my dynasty (was my mashall though) and I didnt had any chance vassalizing any other welsh count not even the count of Gwynnad for whom I pressed his claim earlier.

 

[Nick B II]

Thanks for the clarification!

I thought the fact he was already my vassal (outside the HRE) meant he'd stay so, but I guess I should not have assumed. Thank you!

It doesn't entirely explain why gaining the Duchy of Flanders did not mean gaining all the provinces in Flanders though. I had a similar problem when claiming the Pope's ducal title, I didnt get Rome itself. I assume its something like "You only get the counties directly under Ducal rule, not those delegated to counts or ruled by the King-level tile", but if its how it works, wont we have terrible ugly border syndrome?

Ugly border syndrome is part of feudalism. When your country is based on a complex series of contracts, between you and several dozen contractors, and ultimately thousands of sub-contractors, you ain't gonna end up with pretty borders. In modern Europe most of these arrangements have been smoothed out by various wars, but the town of Baarle on the Belgian-Dutch border includes 22 Belgian enclaves in the Netherlands, and 6 Dutch enclaves in Belgium.

Historically Phillip III of Navarra had possessions ranging from Navarra to Normandy to Greece, there was the Papal city of Avignon, and the HRE's internal map was a mess, etc.

Nick

 

[Secret Master]

My question is, why is it necessary that he has land in your de jure kingdom to continue being your vassal? Which is the motive that made you decide he would leave your kingdom/empire if he gained more land or more concretely a duchy outside your kingdom?

Probably because the Devs read my mind and saw how I was playing the game. And they realized that you can horribly abuse the game if you everyone became your vassal when you pressed their claims. Claims get more common as the game goes on (even when they die out) because families always have extra kids that don't get land but have claims on Dad's old stuff. If you can vassalize everyone you pressed, it would probably take just a century to conquer Europe once you reached critical military mass.

I also think it simulates the medieval past time of just replacing other rulers without taking over the whole area.

 

[siis]

Yes, keeping the printed manual fully up to date would mean that you have to stop changing anything on the game a couple of months before release.

There should be an updated online manual.