So how do you play this game, again?

[The Insufferable]

Hello!

TLDR; How do you expand your control in this game? Marrying no longer works ("desires matriliniar marriage/political concerns"), and fabricating a claim takes forever (lifetimes).

I ask this mainly from the point of view of a Count!

I figured I would play a game as a lowly count (because my friends and I have all stopped playing CKII, we find it to frustrating and anti-fun to play now, but no matter) figuring that, starting from the bottom and building up, I would have some kind of control over the nonsense that harasses me from day one playing a duke or higher.

Well, 3 generations in and I just quit that game too, because I found there was literally nothing to do!?!?! I was aware it would be slow as a count, but at least I figured (like many games long ago) I would see some kind of path or be able make some kind of plan, (mine being working towards the crown of France (as Anjou) through marriages and claim fabrications to get me going - but I could not gain one single title? I could not marry into anything that would lead to titles passing into my dynasty (not even my heir, my dynasty), they all refused (or I wold have to kill 3-4 sons/daughters to make it work...which I could not get even close to enough plot power to do, in a short enough amount of time - for the correct fella to inherit), and fabricating a claim was not only painful but ultimately pointless as (its the Charlemagne start) everyone around me was being placed under (random) dukes from across the kingdom, meaning little old Count me would have to 1v1 a duke....

I used to be able to do this, but I honestly cant figure this out! To me, its (I know this is a strong word) impossible to accomplish anything as a Count in France at the 700's start.


So how do I play? How can a Count grow his power? Clearly things have changed since (well...pre conclave) so much that I need to learn a new strat, so what is that strat? For me, right now, its unplayable. and this makes me sad, because I know the game is fine and I simply don't know something I need to know.

Mucho Gracias,
Jake

 

[The Insufferable]

For the Record, the three expansion strategies that I am aware of are:

1. Fabricate Claim, conquer.
2. Marriage - Usually a son (heir) to another lords daughter (2nd, 3rd in line), a lot of murder, next generation = new territory
3. Get a dude with a claim to join your party, give them a minor title, press their claim, grow.

Trouble is all 3 of these, as far as I was aware, were simply not once feasible during my 3 generations of play.

 

[Adenru]

Mercs.

 

[deadhand13]

Well, playing a vassal count is generally one of the harder starts...

Fabricating claims is random, and you need to pick your targets wisely. Look for other counts under the same liege (both of you under the king, both under same duke, or you under a duke, him under king). Stockpile money for mercs. Use Jew gold.

Marriage is a little trickier. As you've noticed, you generally aren't going to be able to marry your heir off to a countess/duchess/heiress easily, let alone getting matrilineal marriages for a female heir, especially as a lowly count. As your dynastic prestige increases this becomes a bit easier, but that takes time. What you will probably have to do at this stage is marry your heir to a daughter of a valid target, and then press her claim/your grandchild's claim when the current ruler dies. Needless to say, this is not very quick. You can also marry your other sons to valid targets and apply the same strategy so that you might someday be able to spread your dynasty around.

The next one is purely luck based. Send your chancellor to the king and hopefully he will give you one of those multitude of duchies that he has to give out. Or maybe a county. It might not be where you it to be, but at least it's a way to climb the feudal ladder.

Last, if all this doesn't work, you might look into external expansion. I know that the Charlemagne start is not very friendly to a 1pm, but you might be able to find an avenue for expansion outside of the kingdom. Brittany and British Isles are all composed of small realms at game start so you might be able to forge a claim (or marry into a claim) out there and apply the same strategies as before.

As you've noticed, the problem with trying to do any of this as a count is that you have very few resources to work with and the constant threat of loosing your last title if things go belly-up. Pick your targets carefully and don't worry too much about acquiring your long-term demesne.

Edit: Forgot to mention, to help speed up claim forging, use the character finder, sort by high diplo, look for unlanded males of the same religion group, keep going down the list until someone accepts your invitation to your court. Unless you have an awesome chancellor already.

 

[kmh42]

The next one is purely luck based. Send your chancellor to the king and hopefully he will give you one of those multitude of duchies that he has to give out. Or maybe a county. It might not be where you it to be, but at least it's a way to climb the feudal ladder.

When you have conclave you can directly ask you liege for a title. When he likes you and has some to spare maybe this is the way to go.

 

[Dracko81]

For the Record, the three expansion strategies that I am aware of are:

1. Fabricate Claim, conquer.
2. Marriage - Usually a son (heir) to another lords daughter (2nd, 3rd in line), a lot of murder, next generation = new territory
3. Get a dude with a claim to join your party, give them a minor title, press their claim, grow.

Trouble is all 3 of these, as far as I was aware, were simply not once feasible during my 3 generations of play.

I've not had an issue with #1, sometimes it can take a while, other times you get 4 in a year. The key here is just keep at it, once I get to king level though I rarely use it.

You're doing #2 wrong if you ask me. The only time you should try to kill them is because you need a regency. Have your son press his wife's claim. Don't press it yourself as your son will go to her court. I rarely assassinate because it isn't needed.

#3 is arguably one of the worst strategies. I don't use it at all any more because long term it leads to patch worked realms and too much hassle.

4. Marry siblings and children to anyone that stands to inherit land. Doesn't matter where, if you can get a family member with a claim to a kingdom, you have just opened the door to rapid expansion.

 

[kviiri]

#3 is arguably one of the worst strategies. I don't use it at all any more because long term it leads to patch worked realms and too much hassle.

Wha? How is patchwork a pro... I mean how's it *your* problem? I think it's a pretty sweet deal. For example in my current game I granted the duchy of Turov to a claimant to Marche (in CK2+ one can only keep vassals when pressing titles below or equal to their current rank) and as a result, I have a strong duke vassal who's impressive 2K-ish levy can be raised in either Eastern Europe or Italy, wherever I need it. And should the vassal revolt, that rich county and the bulk of their lands are split - two small stacks are easier to clean than one. And once you beat them, you can rearrange the realm if you're so offended by that little exclave.

 

[qwertzuiop]

Well a count can also grow in power by using factions, assassinations and the Intrigue focus. But the problem is that as a mere count who is a direct vassal of the king, it's very difficult to gain anything this way. It would be much easier if you had a duke as your liege because then you could create factions to change the succession law to elective (or to install yourself as the new duke if you have a claim) or you could use the plot to fabricate a claim on the duchy. Sometimes it's also possible to assassinate the duke or his heirs just to destabilize the duchy (any ruler change means that the council will be discontent, so there will be more potential support for your factions). I think that as a count directly under the king, this dimension is missing so the game becomes much harder, even more so if there are no other counts to attack.

 

[Iron Chariots]

Wha? How is patchwork a pro... I mean how's it *your* problem? I think it's a pretty sweet deal. For example in my current game I granted the duchy of Turov to a claimant to Marche (in CK2+ one can only keep vassals when pressing titles below or equal to their current rank) and as a result, I have a strong duke vassal who's impressive 2K-ish levy can be raised in either Eastern Europe or Italy, wherever I need it. And should the vassal revolt, that rich county and the bulk of their lands are split - two small stacks are easier to clean than one. And once you beat them, you can rearrange the realm if you're so offended by that little exclave.

Some people are so caught up in their imaginary world in which feudal states had neat lines with everybody staying in their "de jure" borders that they aren't willing to consider the gameplay benefits of ignoring that.

Personally I agree with you, being able to teleport large stacks across the map is great. I find it especially useful after winning a Crusade. Give a county in Jerusalem to each of my biggest vassals and it doesn't matter how many counter-jihads are called, I can have troops there fast.

 

[Dracko81]

Some people are so caught up in their imaginary world in which feudal states had neat lines with everybody staying in their "de jure" borders that they aren't willing to consider the gameplay benefits of ignoring that.

Personally I agree with you, being able to teleport large stacks across the map is great. I find it especially useful after winning a Crusade. Give a county in Jerusalem to each of my biggest vassals and it doesn't matter how many counter-jihads are called, I can have troops there fast.

That doesn't bother me, what bothers me is when my vassals decide to have a 50 year long war and I lose access to troops because of their incompetence.

 

[Sergeant Flutter]

You don't need a Matri-Marriage. Marry your daughter to the son of another count, when she pops out a kid, kill the other count. The son inherits. Kill him. His kid inherits, kill it.

Then it goes to the kids mom, or you.

 

[tywinzo]

So how do I play? How can a Count grow his power? Clearly things have changed since (well...pre conclave) so much that I need to learn a new strat, so what is that strat? For me, right now, its unplayable. and this makes me sad, because I know the game is fine and I simply don't know something I need to know.

Make lots of babies. Each dynasty member is a pawn on the chess board. If you have the Way of Life DLC you should seduce anything that moves. Otherwise, get hedonist/lustful women and raise your own fertility as much as you can. Your second ruler, if not your first, will have lots of alliances, claims and options for murder. Always keep a good portion of close relatives in your court, ready to be played or sacrificed when needed. This is more important early in the game unless you're starting in with a dynasty that is already large. Once you have the numbers it's almost impossible not to expand as long as you're not marrying lowlife courtiers (*cough* peasants *cough*).

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

For the Record, the three expansion strategies that I am aware of are:

1. Fabricate Claim, conquer.
2. Marriage - Usually a son (heir) to another lords daughter (2nd, 3rd in line), a lot of murder, next generation = new territory
3. Get a dude with a claim to join your party, give them a minor title, press their claim, grow.

Trouble is all 3 of these, as far as I was aware, were simply not once feasible during my 3 generations of play.

1 works variably, depending on your councilors skill, and how much money you have. That said, it generally will work quite well.

Once you get the claim borrow money from the Jews (if you can) and use mercenaries.

2 It's an option. I generally try to marry heiresses in their own right, or female landowners.

3 won't work until you're at least a Duke - anything you press of your own level or higher becomes independent. Even with this, you need to be their liege, their new land needs to be in your de jure lands, or they need to be a relative. If none of these are true, they will be independent.

One option that can work, but is a bit risky is just to marry relatives out to anything that has, or might inherit a title, and go for seniority. When you die, your heir will be the oldest eligible relative on the map. It can work to bring titles together, but does risk your eventual heir being someone half a continent away, and of the wrong culture or religion.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

For the Record, the three expansion strategies that I am aware of are:

1. Fabricate Claim, conquer.
2. Marriage - Usually a son (heir) to another lords daughter (2nd, 3rd in line), a lot of murder, next generation = new territory
3. Get a dude with a claim to join your party, give them a minor title, press their claim, grow.

Trouble is all 3 of these, as far as I was aware, were simply not once feasible during my 3 generations of play.

Those methods still work. As a count you have a couple things to keep in mind, especially for the Charlemagne start under one of the blobs...

1. First, fabricate claim is tough if you don't have a good chancellor. Second, you should only attack other count vassals if you share a liege, so concentrate on your Duke's other Count vassals for now. Once you can get a claim on your liege's Duchy (Chancellor skill of 15+ allows claim on Duchy), then you step up and can fight for other titles under other Counts/Dukes within the Kingdom.

2. You just need the claim to pass to your son of your dynasty.

3. Until you become Duke, you don't bother with giving "dudes with a claim" a minor title. You stick to your dynasty members and press claims for just your family. That way, you can switch to elective and pick that character to be your heir. When you die, you become that person and your country is added to theirs. The trick is to make sure your dynasty is the one inheriting all that land, and elective inheritance can allow you to collect a number of titles together without war.

Also,
4. With mercs, you can claim another province from someone stronger than you... 1v1 against a Duke is tough, but if you catch him recovering from some other fight, the Duke won't be so strong. Of course, you can't take a Duchy if you are vassal to another Duke, so this will only work once you are direct vassal to the King.

So to summarize,
-You are doing it right for the most part... 3 generations means you might have been stuck with weak chancellors, but it also means you might have gone after the wrong targets, ones you can't inherit without pushing through a lot of resistance.
-You pursue expansion and inheritance in tandem, taking advantage of the protection of your liege lords.
-You can't attack other Duke's vassals without attacking that Duke. It's a tough fight if you are a single-holding Count, so first you send your Chancellor against other vassals of your Ducal liege.
-You also can't go after a title equal to your liege without breaking from the liege, so work on taking additional Counties while targeting your Duke's title before jumping after a neighboring Duchy.
-If you are a Count directly under a King, you can expand against more targets (even vassal Dukes), but that King will occasionally place a Duke in your way if you don't score a Duchy for yourself soon enough, so that won't last long. Looks like you already know this.

edited - rewrote for clarity.

 

[Kumicho]

Seriously? Starting as a Count is easy... With a good Chancellor your chances of fabricating a claim are something like 20%/year, so on average you get one claim every 5 years. Every once in a while you should retract him and then put him to fabricate again, since he may have been bribed by the owner of the county. You can also fabricate a claim on your liege through plotting, although I'm not sure exactly what the requirements are for that. This also works well when you've fabricated enough claims on other counties in your duchy that you hold the majority of them.

The only real advice I have for starting as a count is to start with a good province, something with multiple castles and expansion slots to build more. With ~3 castles in your capital you should be able to (easily) outnumber your liege, and from then on it's a cakewalk.

 

[ninoallen]

step 1 take intrigue focus
step 2, spy on the king
step 3, imprison said king
step 4, when you have imprisoned him start a elective monarchy faction
step 5, send demands for faction, king will automatically accept due to being in your prison = 100% war score
step 6 wait for truce to expire then imprison king again
step 7 start a faction to install you as new king, and declare war 100% war score and now your king.

EASY

 

[alanschu]

So how do I play? How can a Count grow his power? Clearly things have changed since (well...pre conclave) so much that I need to learn a new strat, so what is that strat? For me, right now, its unplayable. and this makes me sad, because I know the game is fine and I simply don't know something I need to know.

Honestly I start the same way I always have. Get a good chancellor and fabricate claims. Have high martial so I have a bigger army and crush. If it's taking you lifetimes to get a claim then you're getting bad luck associated with random numbers which sucks. I only ever start games as Counts and it's not been something I struggle with any more than games pre-Conclave.

Method 3 still works too, just not as a Count. Games as a count are definitely slower though as you're typically waiting for the Chancellor to work his or her magic.

I could not marry into anything that would lead to titles passing into my dynasty (not even my heir, my dynasty), they all refused

This is weird. I never have issues marrying into my own dynasty. Though they tend to be my vassals. Is this a place such as early Ireland with independent realms?

 

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

1. Get a jewish courtier
2. (???)
3. install your now jewish son on the throne
4. Holy war everyone

Profit!

 

[AjayAlcos]

Hello!
So how do you play this game, again?

Shag, murder, WIN!

 

[Burned Coffee]

If you have the favors, you can extort people into marrying matrilineally, if your liege has the warchest ambition try to donate money for the chance of a favor, makes warrying inside a kingdom easier since in conclave the king will try to enforce realm peace, and if you have a claim outside the kingdom you can make your liege push it for you, but this one is a bit tricky because you want to wait or nudge the council into accepting the war.

WIthout conclave, if you're a count try making a faction for elective in your duchy, it can be quite tricky, but if you get some other counts as allies by marrying some of your daughters you should have enough strength to fight for it, if you're well liked you can get the duchy, you can get the money, you can get the girl.

I mostly without forging claims, by marrying members of my family I end up being able to get random claims here and there.