So how come the state of Egypt was not the dominant force in the Classical period?

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Abdul Goatherd

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Lack of timber and, to some extent, iron, was also a problem for many Greek city-states, which didn't prevent them from becoming powerhouses. Athens was famously lacking of timber, yet it still maintained a powerful navy thanks to trade and its hegemony over northern Greek cities.

True. But its relatively close and there wasn't a single enemy power up there controlling it. Athens had many timber options along the long coast from Macedonia to Thrace and the Black Sea if necessary.

Egypt's timber option was essentially limited to one source: Lebanon. If an enemy power takes the Levant (Persians, Seleucids, Romans, Crusaders, Turks, etc.), Egypt is cut off and doesn't really have alternative options. The next best option is the Balkans - a very long distance.

Egypt has never been a naval power. Whether in Ancient times or in Medieval days or early Modern days. It was always a land-power.
 

gagenater

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Lack of timber and, to some extent, iron, was also a problem for many Greek city-states, which didn't prevent them from becoming powerhouses. Athens was famously lacking of timber, yet it still maintained a powerful navy thanks to trade and its hegemony over northern Greek cities.

Except Athens, none of the Greek city rates were powerhouses. They were tiny fractured polities that got dust rolled as soon as somebody better organized wanted them.

Athens itself, the exception was only a major power for a fairly short time period. It controlled the largest silver mine in the ancient world at Laurium/Lavrion - based on analysis of tailings volumes and silver content the greatest lode of silver discovered and mined before Spain’s discovery and conquest of the new world. They could buy whatever they needed. Indeed a major silver strike there was the primary reason Athens went from a city state to the organizer of the defeat of Persia. It’s depletion was one of the major reasons for the fall of the Athenian league and its eventual capture by Sparta.
http://ancient-greece.org/archaeology/lavrion.html
https://www.mininghistoryassociation.org/Journal/MHJ-v3-1996-Economopoulos.pdf
 
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Fornadan

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Ptolemaic Egypt extended into Greece and certainly was one of the top naval powers of its time
 

Abdul Goatherd

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Ptolemaic Egypt extended into Greece and certainly was one of the top naval powers of its time

A period when it had access to Phoenician expertise & naval resources in the Levant/Syria as well as Cyprus & Crete. But Egypt itself has none.

Anybody who held Phoenicia was automatically a top naval power.
 

Fornadan

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A period when it had access to Phoenician expertise & naval resources in the Levant/Syria as well as Cyprus & Crete. But Egypt itself has none.

Anybody who held Phoenicia was automatically a top naval power.
Sure, but the assertion was that Egypt was never a dominant force in the Classical period, when it clearly was one of the top powers. If that was based on having an empire extending outside of Egypt, then so what?
 

Antediluvian Monster

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this
ptolemaic-dynast.jpg

Unimaginative naming convention?
 

gagenater

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Sure, but the assertion was that Egypt was never a dominant force in the Classical period, when it clearly was one of the top powers. If that was based on having an empire extending outside of Egypt, then so what?

They could never maintain a hold on the outside of Egypt areas. They could grab them from time to time, but never get durable control. Even 50 years was too much to ask for. By contrast other states grabbed and held the Levant for much more durable periods.
 
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keynes2.0

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Well, most people that have worked on the taxes the empire gathered from Egypt have put it at 220-300 million sesterces, of which about 54% would be from the grain revenue. Hopkins put the total amount of taxes per year during the principate to 800-900 million sesterces, which means that the Egyptian tax contribution would be between 24.4% and 37.5%. Even with Alexandria included, Egypt would at most contribute 10% of the population of the empire, so it really was a bread/sesterces basket for the empire.

Is that more or less then the grain exported from Africa?

Did the romans tax grain exports from Egypt? I thought that they subsidized grain exports from egypt. In that case the tax figures from egypt would be more about how much wine, olive oil and timber they imported.
 

keynes2.0

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That might be on the high side, but even the low estimates don't go under 9 million artabas (Sharp).

I mean, I'm no expert on this but I went looking for other numbers and found that Garnsey on page 231 "Famine and Food Supply in the Graeco-Roman World: Responses to Risk and Crisis" gave estimates of 20 million moddii from Egypt and 40 million modii from Africa around the time of Augustus.

Maybe Garnsey is wrong but I'm really skeptical of you saying the estimates dont go lower and then me finding a lower estimate by just going to wikipedia and looking up the most relevant seeming footnote.

I am also skeptical that the numbers were that low because the dole was in effect before Egypt was part of the empire and we have the story of Pompey going not to Egypt but to Corsica, Sicily and Africa. To me this makes it seem very likely that these areas were capable of surpluses that could meet the needs of Rome.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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Sure, but the assertion was that Egypt was never a dominant force in the Classical period, when it clearly was one of the top powers. If that was based on having an empire extending outside of Egypt, then so what?

The assertion was "not" rather than "never". The Classical period is a long period. Nobody is denying Egypt had its moments.

The fact that its good moments always depends on whether it holds the Levant or not is a good indicator of what the inherent problem with Egypt was.
 

gagenater

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When comparing harvest volumes or tax numbers between different parts of the Roman Empire it’s important to remember how hard it can be to get good comparisons. Rome lasted a long time and from one era to another the relative importance of different areas could change greatly from century to century. This could be due to climate change or tax policies or different divisions and of land and revenue between official state figures and private figures.

Another enormous variable was population.
Unlike the modern era it was quite common in that time for even prosperous agricultural regions to have fallow or poorly utilized land simply due to lack of labor to work it all. This can easily be seen in the way the Romans and others of the era went to great lengths to get and keep people in agriculturally productive areas; granting soldiers freeholds, acquiring vast numbers of slave laborers, accounts of crashes in harvests after regional epidemics - there often simply weren’t enough hands to go around and do all the work needed to get maximum productivity in all places at all times.

This is before accounting for different weights or standards of coinage in different parts of the empire or at different times, and vastly different levels of administrative efficiency in different places. Part of what made Egypt so useful to the Romans was the way that agriculture there depended on a collective effort to maintain the irrigation and drainage systems to control the Nile floods. To do it efficiently ‘built in’ an oppprtunity for the central state to keep tabs on what was happening and efficiently collect taxes and grain surpluses. Many other areas might have had equally good harvests at times, but administratively would be more costly and difficult to efficiently collect grain and taxes from.
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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The assertion was "not" rather than "never". The Classical period is a long period. Nobody is denying Egypt had its moments.

The fact that its good moments always depends on whether it holds the Levant or not is a good indicator of what the inherent problem with Egypt was.

Indeed.

It can be argued that the true glory of Egypt pre-dates the Classical period completely. By the time Greece showed up, Egypt was old and tired, corrupt and inbred.

Homer is about 700 BC, give or take? How old are those pyramids?
 

AegonVLLI

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Even at the Battle of Antium, Egypt had around 250 galleys on top of Antony's 250 Roman warships so 500~ combined force against Octavian's 250 warships which were smaller than Antony's larger ones. If Cleopatra hadn't chosen to retreat before engaging then Octavian would have been defeated. Still amazes me how Octavian won that despite being disadvantaged as he was attacking a defensive formation within a gulf.
But there is a huge difference between being able to afford a navy as a part of the Roman Empire on the one hand and being able to build one as a independent entity.
I would guess a rich region like Egypt would have no problems buying timber or whole ships from Roman suppliers. The only limiting factor would be money, which Egypt had a lot of.
Having to supply the materials for a fleet without these channels would be much more difficult, especially with near sources either completely undeveloped or in enemy hands...
 

AegonVLLI

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That battle was what lead to Egypt being part of the Roman empire. They weren't in before.
But had close ties to it. And no long rivalry between them. If I am not mistaken, trade with the Romans should be considerably easier than before.
 

keynes2.0

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That is a very different thing as the grain collected in Egypt had multiple uses. First of all the army had to be fed, the emperor made grain donations to various cities around the Mediterranean, and grain were sold off on the market to provide some much needed silver for the imperial coffers.

Okay, I believe you. Now let's follow this logic.

Egypt is exporting about 60 million modii. Of this, most isn't going to Rome. Rome needs about 60 million modii. Since that's about as big as all Egyptian exports and most Egyptian exports are going to cities other then Rome, that means that other places were exporting to Rome...

and then promptly dismisses the idea that Rome would have needed 60 million modii per year

Strange, your reading of the passage seems to differ from my own.
 

cloneof

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Indeed.

It can be argued that the true glory of Egypt pre-dates the Classical period completely. By the time Greece showed up, Egypt was old and tired, corrupt and inbred.

Homer is about 700 BC, give or take? How old are those pyramids?

I would agree. The best days of Egypt were in the Bronze Age.
 

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But had close ties to it. And no long rivalry between them. If I am not mistaken, trade with the Romans should be considerably easier than before.

Octavius makes Egypt the personal fief of Caesar. Caesar becomes Pharaoh, this is the font of Caesar's Divinity. All profits from Egypt henceforth go directly into Caesar's pocket, and the Emperor's grain ships are mandatory for keeping Rome happy with free bread. As long as Rome is happy, the Emperor is safe; usually.
 
Last edited:

keynes2.0

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I disagree because you pretty much pull an impossible number from thin air and try to make an argument based on that magic number.

That is a circular argument. You find the conclusions of the source to be implausible, so the source isn't credible. The conclusions are implausible because no credible source agrees.