So... Even more pressure on influence and envoys now?

[Dementor4]

It's getting hard for me to get excited about this content when both new features AND old features are now locked behind brand new influence sinks and envoys. All interactions with primitives (including old options like converting them to your ethics and enlightening them) now cost influence because they're locked behind espionage operations? And you can't even get the full society bonus from the observation missions without assigning an envoy to run the spy ring.

 

[The5lacker]

I wonder if they added some new techs you get from interacting with primatives which increase your Envoy count, hmm...

 

[Dementor4]

I wonder if they added some new techs you get from interacting with primatives which increase your Envoy count, hmm...

More pressure on your tech system to get you to the exact same place you used to be in? And that doesn't help with influence at all. Influence is worse now, because one of the few reliable ways to increase it (protectorates) is now locked behind an influence cost that didn't used to exist.

 

[-Marauder-]

I wonder if they added some new techs you get from interacting with primatives which increase your Envoy count, hmm...

More envoys, yes. Not really as many as you'd need. The problem is Influence, it should NOT be required when dealing with pre FTL.

 

[KNakamura]

... you keep saying that. That doesn't make it right. Influence would make logical sense here. It's the resource used for anything diplomatic.

 

[heliostellar]

Influence mana has been a dead man walking since they moved most of its consumption over to unity. Can we just put it out of its misery? I've always hated this specific mana pool. It was always difficult to increase it up until you could take the +5 Influence advanced edict. Now that you can't manipulate your factions to generate more, is it supposed to just be an awkward, clumsy yoke around the player's neck until we get advanced tech?

 

[Masked Ermine]

Influence mana has been a dead man walking since they moved most of its consumption over to unity. Can we just put it out of its misery? I've always hated this specific mana pool. It was always difficult to increase it up until you could take the +5 Influence advanced edict. Now that you can't manipulate your factions to generate more, is it supposed to just be an awkward, clumsy yoke around the player's neck until we get advanced tech?

Influence was always meant to be an albatross to slow down development of steamrolling empires. I've recently found out there is a means of getting more influence resolutely if you have the money for it via the artistic enclave (I typically ignore most of the enclaves that aren't curator or salvagers, or occasionally shroudwalkers because I apparently was stupid)....but even then...you run into issues...especially if you steamroll too early to make rivaling neighbor empires viable...which is a significant boon....what little influence you get contacting new species also tends to get sucked up not long after the GC forms...and I suspect many players may forego that source to get federations or commercial pacts up (if megacorp) by trading contact info....

I agree influence may be getting stretched thin a bit. Especially with increased costs (and limited recoup of said costs) due to vassalization requirements. I feel like we should be able to buy influence (rarely like with a 10-20 year cool down and maybe only like 400-500 influence points) but I doubt we'd be allowed such a thing, and I'm not sure how much such a purchase should cost (20-30K energy sounds about right)... Though 500 energy seems to buy 50 influence so 5,000 should purchase 500....I don't know...I feel like you should be able to buy influence in a limited non-game breaky way (it's literally a phrase....).

But influence is a weird duck, I can have games where I literally have to do espionage for the lulz because I literally cannot disgorge enough influence and other games where it's like I have six vassals all producing influence for me because of the building...WHY AM I CONSTANTLY OUT OF INFLUENCE!!!!?

 

[ZomgK3tchup]

... you keep saying that. That doesn't make it right. Influence would make logical sense here. It's the resource used for anything diplomatic.

While true, this misses the point.

It’s fine that influence is used for expansion and foreign policy, but when influence is tight, espionage almost always loses out.

If I have to choose between expansion and espionage, expansion wins our every single time. If I have to choose between passing a desired GC resolution and espionage, the GC resolution is almost always better.

What this DLC effectively did was turn primitives enlightenment into something incredibly niche that you only engage with when you have no other influence sinks.

 

[heliostellar]

I agree influence may be getting stretched thin a bit. Especially with increased costs (and limited recoup of said costs) due to vassalization requirements. I feel like we should be able to buy influence (rarely like with a 10-20 year cool down and maybe only like 400-500 influence points) but I doubt we'd be allowed such a thing, and I'm not sure how much such a purchase should cost (20-30K energy sounds about right)... Though 500 energy seems to buy 50 influence so 5,000 should purchase 500....I don't know...I feel like you should be able to buy influence in a limited non-game breaky way (it's literally a phrase....).

But influence is a weird duck, I can have games where I literally have to do espionage for the lulz because I literally cannot disgorge enough influence and other games where it's like I have six vassals all producing influence for me because of the building...WHY AM I CONSTANTLY OUT OF INFLUENCE!!!!?

Yeah, you can "buy" Influence from the Artisan Troupe, but it's an RNG event. If they want to keep using this system though, they can't give us such a short leash from the beginning of the game.

For instance, if I have one ally with the standard set of treaties: Non-Aggression (-0.25) + Research (-0.25) + Commercial Pact (-0.25) + Migration Treaty (-0.25) + Defense Pact (-1.00), you are already burning through -2.00 influence just for that one empire. Although, I do realize things like the Diplomacy tree can reduce those costs.

If you only get a flat +3.0 influence, then you're not able to do much until you get much more advanced tech. So, yes, I would agree we definitely need more reliable ways to generate influence.

 

[Dona]

It's getting hard for me to get excited about this content when both new features AND old features are now locked behind brand new influence sinks and envoys. All interactions with primitives (including old options like converting them to your ethics and enlightening them) now cost influence because they're locked behind espionage operations? And you can't even get the full society bonus from the observation missions without assigning an envoy to run the spy ring.

Except after early expansion (and, maybe, habitat spam), both influence and envoys have few uses. Personally, I would add even more uses for them.

 

[Masked Ermine]

Yeah, you can "buy" Influence from the Artisan Troupe, but it's an RNG event. If they want to keep using this system though, they can't give us such a short leash from the beginning of the game.

For instance, if I have one ally with the standard set of treaties: Non-Aggression (-0.25) + Research (-0.25) + Commercial Pact (-0.25) + Migration Treaty (-0.25) + Defense Pact (-1.00), you are already burning through -2.00 influence just for that one empire. Although, I do realize things like the Diplomacy tree can reduce those costs.

If you only get a flat +3.0 influence, then you're not able to do much until you get much more advanced tech. So, yes, I would agree we definitely need more reliable ways to generate influence.

I think the Non-aggression pact gets superceded by the Defense pact, so you shouldn't be paying for both....and depending on your empire build, you can get rid of the cost of the commercial pact as well...and obviously if you get your ally into a federation it sweeps the most expensive treaties out for a flat Federation cost...(which can be further whittled down by mid-later stage federation levels where migration treaties and other specialized treaties' costs are nullified)....

But I agree, especially if you are trying to convert vassals or taking on lots of vassals, influence gets thin....especially if you're playing certain galaxy types (like spoked....which I play because I'm a defensive, slower player) wherein you may still be expanding and have huge unexplored patches of the galaxy due to being cut off from some spokes or portions of spokes by say a fallen empire or a leviathan or a marauder group.

 

[st360]

I wonder if they added some new techs you get from interacting with primatives which increase your Envoy count, hmm...

They added tech to slowly get you to the same place you where in a game where snowballing is exponential.

 

[HFY]

Except after early expansion (and, maybe, habitat spam), both influence and envoys have few uses. Personally, I would add even more uses for them.

- Claims
- Orbital Rings
- GC resolutions
- Habitats
- Hyper Relays
- Ringworlds

... what have you been playing that Influence is not useful to you after early expansion?

 

[XCodes]

I will actually agree that espionage operations should absolutely never cost influence and should just cost energy and maybe unity for certain operations. The benefits of the operations simply do not compete in terms of value with literally anything else you can spend Influence on.

The Envoy Pressure issue is moot. Because espionage against primitives is so generally useless, you actually just get more Envoys for sticking an observation post over pre-FTL's and leaving it there.

 

[ZomgK3tchup]

- Claims
- Orbital Rings
- GC resolutions
- Habitats
- Hyper Relays
- Ringworlds

... what have you been playing that Influence is not useful to you after early expansion?

It’s worth mentioning that “after early expansion” isn’t a good metric.

When expansion ends is RNG dependent and based on where other empires spawn in proximity to you. This means expansion can end 20 years into the game or 50 years into the game.

And while Paradox doesn’t balance around non-default galaxy configurations, expansion can last much longer if you decrease max empires, remove fallen empires, or increase hyperlane density.

What often happens is that you have to juggle expansion and these additional influence sinks.

 

[Starfury]

If you only get a flat +3.0 influence, then you're not able to do much until you get much more advanced tech. So, yes, I would agree we definitely need more reliable ways to generate influence.

Power projection + rivals?

 

[HFY]

It’s worth mentioning that “after early expansion” isn’t a good metric.

That's true and I agree.

But even if we give the most generous interpretation to "after early expansion", there are a lot of uses for Influence.

I forgot to mention Ecumenopoli earlier, so let me add that now -- one of my favorite big-ticket Influence uses.

 

[heliostellar]

Power projection + rivals?

So, yes, I would agree we definitely need more reliable ways to generate influence.

^Emphasis added

Power projection is completely different than the old, RELIABLE way of generating influence: factions. Factions would just give you passive influence for simply playing the game consistent with your empire's ethics, which by it's very nature is reliable since you choose your ethics.

Power projection is capped at +2.0 influence and requires you to have built out an advanced tech fleet to forcelimits. That is a very SPECIFIC way to generate influence for tech-advanced militants.

 

[HFY]

Power projection is capped at +2.0 influence and requires you to have built out an advanced tech fleet to forcelimits.

Nope.

Empty hulls with sharpie-marker weapon sketches will look just as impressive on parade, and will generate full Power Projection (which can hit a higher cap than +2.0 in vanilla).

 

[heliostellar]

Nope.

Empty hulls with sharpie-marker weapon sketches will look just as impressive on parade, and will generate full Power Projection (which can hit a higher cap than +2.0 in vanilla).

Ok, so you have to build Potemkin fleets, but it's still incentivizing a militarist playstyle. The influence generated is dependent on the relationship between how big your built-out fleet is to how big your empire is...