So EU4 devs, will you return to the European Great Powers?

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Knut Skallagrim

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Sure I agree, but a lot of people, especially those in favour for content for Europe do not. Some people do indeed enjoy the restrictions of the HRE. That's more what I was getting at.

Ah so people do not agree that german region should have 1,2 - 1,3x more provinces and resulting basetax to make up for balance and even more heterogeneity in europe? I think that the only one who's not gonna like this is just the dev team because of the work needed and some rotw guys who think that revamping mid europe once means that the rest of the world will be forgotten forever..
 

EldarPanic

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1. They were joking. Hence all the 1s and exclamation marks as if acting like a little child with a keyboard.

2. They stated that they thought European history was much more interesting than Asia and Africas, even though they don't really know about the history of either and that no matter how much flavour was added to Africa/Asia they would never play there.

Obviously they didn't mean any racist comments or any offence and they established that English wasn't their first language but it was quite an odd way to put it and thus it could be interpreted to believing Europeans are superior to others, I state again, I know that's not what they meant :D.

Honestly, this game in general does this 'Europe superiority thing' and I'm not gunna lie, it annoys me a little. The advantage Europe has over RotW is a bit too much IMO. Slaughtering men at 5 to 1 odds with minimal losses CONSISTANTLY I just can't swallow that.
Hmm nowadays people will get offended by anything so you never know and I agree the rest of the world needs more content but as an European you kinda tend to like you history more than the history of others so I can see where this is coming from.
 

Castille4tehwin

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1. They were joking. Hence all the 1s and exclamation marks as if acting like a little child with a keyboard.

2. They stated that they thought European history was much more interesting than Asia and Africas, even though they don't really know about the history of either and that no matter how much flavour was added to Africa/Asia they would never play there.

Obviously they didn't mean any racist comments or any offence and they established that English wasn't their first language but it was quite an odd way to put it and thus it could be interpreted to believing Europeans are superior to others, I state again, I know that's not what they meant :D.

Honestly, this game in general does this 'Europe superiority thing' and I'm not gunna lie, it annoys me a little. The advantage Europe has over RotW is a bit too much IMO. Slaughtering men at 5 to 1 odds with minimal losses CONSISTANTLY I just can't swallow that.
Europe defined this era so of course what they did is more interesting than what some sub-Saharan tribe did. Get over it.
 

Mikalos

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Europe defined this era so of course what they did is more interesting than what some sub-Saharan tribe did. Get over it.

and in 1444 they hadnt yet. thats always the crux problem people have with eu and eu4 specefically - europe has yet to establish any form of dominance over anybody, but the game will go out of its way to make sure they can, the biggest being the tech differences, a super succesful china will always be inferior to europe and has to "westernize" to be able to be a true nation, even if they have built the westernization path via taking over eurasia between them and the closest western nation
 

WeissRaben

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and in 1444 they hadnt yet. thats always the crux problem people have with eu and eu4 specefically - europe has yet to establish any form of dominance over anybody, but the game will go out of its way to make sure they can, the biggest being the tech differences, a super succesful china will always be inferior to europe and has to "westernize" to be able to be a true nation, even if they have built the westernization path via taking over eurasia between them and the closest western nation

Not even in 1600, really, even if they were surely starting to be quite important everywhere. By 1700, Europe was quite solidly en route for the absolute top spot, but that's two thirds of the way to endgame.
 

net.split

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and in 1444 they hadnt yet. thats always the crux problem people have with eu and eu4 specefically - europe has yet to establish any form of dominance over anybody, but the game will go out of its way to make sure they can, the biggest being the tech differences, a super succesful china will always be inferior to europe and has to "westernize" to be able to be a true nation, even if they have built the westernization path via taking over eurasia between them and the closest western nation
It's very difficult to model things properly without doing this. If the base game mechanics were very open-ended with respect to how the world can develop from a 1444 starting point, you'd almost always have an outcome where the entire world develops at the same rate (see: Civilization games).

In order to create a game where Europe usually dominates as it did historically, but not always, and the rest of the world has at game start the ability to progress in a similar manner (but does so rarely), you'd have to do one of two things. One, you'd have to leave the whole thing up to the random number generator to see if "European dominace" happens. That's heavy-handed and would be bizarre to play. The other option is to actually model all the different things that led to Europe's dominance. That's... difficult, to say the least; it's hard to make that into a fun game, it's hard to get it all right and balanced, it's hard to even figure out what all the proper components are, and it's hard to write a computer game that can then run this simulation at a reasonable speed.

Worse, even if you could do it, it leaves the question... why? The American nations never achieved European levels of technological advancement primarily because they lacked sufficient beasts of burden (and because of massive plague that predated European arrival). If you implement this in a simulation, you end up with something that's functionally equivalent to the New World tech group we have now, only more complicated for no real reason.

There did exist nations that could have competed on even footing with the West -- China comes to mind in particular. However, at the 1444 start, you have, among other things, many centuries of culture that prevented the Chinese from having either the government or the outside-of-China empire-building focus that would have been necessary. Pretending that none of this was there and taking China on a world dominating spree is essentially as nonsense as teleporting horses and donkeys into the Americas prior to European arrival.

That's why the game has tech groups, and that's why the game has Westernizing as a mechanism for erasing these components and elevating nations to the point where they can compete directly with Europe. It's a sufficient model for the most part. It has some rough edges, but tweaking the numbers is sufficient. You don't really need a complete redesign of the model.
 

wingzero890

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the entire world develops at the same rate (see: Civilization games).

This never happens in civ unless you play on the extremely high difficulties. The player can always outstrip the AI's development and research in civ.

edit: and there are always AI who fall far, far behind the others in development.
 
Last edited:

WeissRaben

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There did exist nations that could have competed on even footing with the West -- China comes to mind in particular. However, at the 1444 start, you have, among other things, many centuries of culture that prevented the Chinese from having either the government or the outside-of-China empire-building focus that would have been necessary. Pretending that none of this was there and taking China on a world dominating spree is essentially as nonsense as teleporting horses and donkeys into the Americas prior to European arrival.

China was not the part of East Asia that could have reliably kept pace with Europe - that place is all for Japan. By 1600 they were the greatest producer of firearms (good firearms) in the world, military tactics pretty similar to Western ones were being developed independently, and their society was shifting to a more trade-focused profile that would have encouraged the rise of a strong middle class. Sadly, the seeds to isolationism were there already - the disaster in Korea had damaged their view of the world quite a bit. That's not fixed, though, not even barely. An outward-focused Japan wouldn't have enacted the Sakoku and would have kept being a distinctly progressive country: ever IRL, after more than two centuries of shutdown, Japan industrialized in record time: the bases were there, and had been for a long time. And a modern Japan means a modern Asia, because when someone has guns and you don't, you better get them fast. Persia and the Mughals agree.
 

horizonwalker

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China was not the part of East Asia that could have reliably kept pace with Europe - that place is all for Japan. By 1600 they were the greatest producer of firearms (good firearms) in the world, military tactics pretty similar to Western ones were being developed independently, and their society was shifting to a more trade-focused profile that would have encouraged the rise of a strong middle class.
Any reliable source? "the greatest producer of firearms in the world" Well, in the Battle of Nagashino, Nobunaga used around 1000 arquebusiers (according to Shinchō kōki), while he had most firearms among all daimyos. By the siege of Osaka, otomo got his Kunikuzushi (Breech-loading swivel gun, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breech-loading_swivel_gun) from his Portuguese ally, since no firearm factory in Japan can manufacture it (not to mention Chinese reverse engineered such weapon decades ago). Japan was definitely not "the greatest producer of firearms" at that time.
 

Nassau

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A next DLC about diseases in all parts of the world would be nice. A dynamic trade route system. More trade goods. A better system around waterworks in the Netherlands. Same for hills and mountains. Switzerland and the Netherlands are unhistorical highways for armies. A further improvement of dynasties would be historical.

And bugfixes.


But not more Europe in general.


Reading this thread I see a few people saying this game is to much about Europe and how Europe will always get their top position.


Well welcome to EUROPA Universalis.
 

grisamentum

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Any reliable source? "the greatest producer of firearms in the world" Well, in the Battle of Nagashino, Nobunaga used around 1000 arquebusiers (according to Shinchō kōki), while he had most firearms among all daimyos.

You have your source wrong. They had VOLLEYS of 1,000 firing at a time, and Nobunaga had 3000 samurai arquebusiers, plus non-noble arquebusiers as well.

According to at least one book, there were over 300,000 firearms produced in the mid-16th century in Japan.

The Japan invasion of Korea (1592) also had something like 40,000 matchlock gunners ( here )
 
Last edited:

PhroX

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Not even in 1600, really, even if they were surely starting to be quite important everywhere. By 1700, Europe was quite solidly en route for the absolute top spot, but that's two thirds of the way to endgame.

To go even further, I've read pretty convincing arguments that Europe, although dominant by the mid-18th century, hadn't solidified that dominance until the mid-19th century. In particular, the relative peace throughout most of that century after the early years - while there were wars, they tended to be between a few nations, rather than the continent, even world, spanning wars that ended with the Napoleonic conflicts - allowed Europe to turn their attention outwards and convert the dominance they had "permanent". Had there been further conflicts on the scale of the Napoleonic wars, then there's possibilities that other parts of the world, at least somewhat free of the European yoke, could've developed themselves to the level of Europe.
 

ChildeR

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Ah so people do not agree that german region should have 1,2 - 1,3x more provinces and resulting basetax to make up for balance and even more heterogeneity in europe?

If you are saying German region should get another 20-30% provinces, I certainly don't agree. Many are too small already. A few more might have space but nowhere near 15 (=20%). If buffs are needed for some reason, BT and MP increases should do the trick.
 

Korsan82

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This thread is just ridiculous. The bulk of the content of every single expansion went to European nations. (Keep in mind that the improvements which came with Art of War were patched in, rather than part of the expansion.) If we can presume that El Dorado is the OP's biggest example for Paradox favouring the inferior "Rest of the World" over the mighty European Übermenschen by the fact that this thread came out shortly after the release, we can perhaps use the topics brought up in the Developer Diaries as a point of measurement:

EU4: El Dorado - Development Diary 1: Nahuatl, Exploration & Treaty of Tordesillas (Non-European, European, European)
EU4: El Dorado - Development Diary 2: The Nation Designer (Universal)
EU4: El Dorado - Development Diary 3: Inti, Maya and Liberty Desire (Non-European, Non-European, Universal)
EU4 - El Dorado - Development Diary 4: Seven Cities of Gold and Colonial Merchants (European, European)
EU4 - El Dorado - Development Diary 5: Treasure Fleets and Pirate Hunting (European, European)

Using the Developer Diaries as a measure (and that's being generous, as the new American religions were largely based upon the same basic blueprint,) a total of six improvements given to European nations, whereas a mere three were given to parts of the world outside of Europe. And that's not to mention the fact that your dichotomy also implies that "Europe" and "Not Europe" are two groups of equal size and footing in the first place...

Simply reflects the design philophy which is to tailor the remaining world as the needs of Europe require it. All the world is plaything to Europe and every DLC released so far emphasized this design philosophy which I think is the unfunniest thing of all possible options to reflect the balance of powers.
 

saegoto

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some of my humble suggestions for new DLC/patch:

- rework naval combat system
- rework espionage system
- rework Stability system
- rework prestige system; it's too easy to keep it high. Maybe would it be good to make values of adding and losing prestige flat depending on what you do, what you reached, what you screw up

- use polish events for Elective Monarchy (Nieszawa Privileges, The Sejm comply with your policies, The Pacta Conventa and the Henrykian Articles etc) to create unique government mechanism for Elective Monarchy
- event "Elective Monarchy in Poland" should not fire when it does not have Union with Lithuania
- add Rokosz as unique disaster for Elective Commonwealth and Hungary if it is lesser partner of union.
- add Religious Wars, War of Three Henries and Frond as unique event chain or disaster for France
- add unique government for England: Parliamentary Monarchy with Whigs - Thories unique mechanism

- add unique end bonus for Offensive
- buff Innovative
- remove Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite idea from monarchic France (this is historically inconsistent)

- Differentiate government:
- base diplomat travel time (it would took longer for diplomat from feudal monarchy to travel than a diplomat from absolutic monarchy)
- base discovered spy cooldown (in 1.10 spy will have 5 years cooldown, I suggest to determine it from government type)
- maximum number of policies (currently we can have turn on 5 policies)
- duration of a policy (now policy duration is always 10 years)
- stability cooldown (not just insta increase) (to use 'increace stability button would have cooldown, e.g. 18 months for feudal and 6 months for enlightment despotism)
- minimum/maximum stability (feudal monarchies could have -4 +2 stability and elightment despotism -2 +4)
- WE drop cooldown (feudal, despotic monarchies were more resist to war so 6 months for them and 18 months for enlightment despotism
- advisor level (max advisor level for feudal is +2 and administrative monarchy can have +3, absolutic +3, enlightment despotism +4(ultra expensive)
- minimum local authonomy (15% for feudal, 10 for administrative, 0 for absolutic)
- monthly local authonomy decrease (as we have now)
- special bonuses (as we have now)
 
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unillogical

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I don't get why people say this every single time the inevitable post-DLC speculation begins. Of course there are going to be patches and hotfixes first. There are always are; it's implied.

You're objectively wrong here, I have complained time and time again that the game needs patching but rather than working on that they release a new DLC with a whole new set of bugs, the outcome is that we never get a patch that doesn't contain game breaking/ruining bugs. Fix the game, then release your buggy DLC, rinse repeat.
 

TheMeInTeam

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You're objectively wrong here, I have complained time and time again that the game needs patching but rather than working on that they release a new DLC with a whole new set of bugs, the outcome is that we never get a patch that doesn't contain game breaking/ruining bugs. Fix the game, then release your buggy DLC, rinse repeat.

+1. Adding liberty desire to vassals without fixing vassal bugs with coring and religious conversion smacks of clear evidence of that "objectively wrong" assertion. Were that an isolated incident, it'd be less of an issue, but this game is bug ridden and the UI is still poor enough that it's often hard to tell the WAD from bugged.
 

Mikalos

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It's very difficult to model things properly without doing this. If the base game mechanics were very open-ended with respect to how the world can develop from a 1444 starting point, you'd almost always have an outcome where the entire world develops at the same rate (see: Civilization games).

In order to create a game where Europe usually dominates as it did historically, but not always, and the rest of the world has at game start the ability to progress in a similar manner (but does so rarely), you'd have to do one of two things. One, you'd have to leave the whole thing up to the random number generator to see if "European dominace" happens. That's heavy-handed and would be bizarre to play. The other option is to actually model all the different things that led to Europe's dominance. That's... difficult, to say the least; it's hard to make that into a fun game, it's hard to get it all right and balanced, it's hard to even figure out what all the proper components are, and it's hard to write a computer game that can then run this simulation at a reasonable speed.

Worse, even if you could do it, it leaves the question... why? The American nations never achieved European levels of technological advancement primarily because they lacked sufficient beasts of burden (and because of massive plague that predated European arrival). If you implement this in a simulation, you end up with something that's functionally equivalent to the New World tech group we have now, only more complicated for no real reason.

There did exist nations that could have competed on even footing with the West -- China comes to mind in particular. However, at the 1444 start, you have, among other things, many centuries of culture that prevented the Chinese from having either the government or the outside-of-China empire-building focus that would have been necessary. Pretending that none of this was there and taking China on a world dominating spree is essentially as nonsense as teleporting horses and donkeys into the Americas prior to European arrival.

That's why the game has tech groups, and that's why the game has Westernizing as a mechanism for erasing these components and elevating nations to the point where they can compete directly with Europe. It's a sufficient model for the most part. It has some rough edges, but tweaking the numbers is sufficient. You don't really need a complete redesign of the model.

i know it;s difficult, im just saying that acting like theres nothing wrong with europe getting to be top dog without extreme player interference because the game wills them to be is bad.
 

Thucydides7

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Long before I discovered Europa Universalis IV, I had tired of the social obligation not to be a racist. This perverse social obligation has become ubiquitous in the Western world, it is killing us, and I hate it.

I hadn't really cared about racism one way or the other, but ubiquitous antiracism has rather made me a racist. I like Europa Universalis IV in part because it lets me be a racist. In other words, it lets me pretend to be the sort of European who would have been accepted as normal during most of the 1444-1820 period the game models, instead of pretending to be the bizarrely common sort of 21st-century European who has a death-wish for his own race.

Of course, the label racist doesn't even mean anything coherent, except that the one so labeled is unimpressed by Leftist taboos. But you think that it has something to do with "hate," so I won't be able to persuade you, will I? And it does indeed have something to do with hate. I hate antiracism.

Europa Universalis IV is obviously chiefly marketed to and played by Europeans. Non-Europeans can make their own video games if they like. I assume that some do.

A few contributors to this thread have spent too much time reading Jared Diamond.
 
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WhiskyGlen

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From my understanding, Europa Universalis means universal Europe, which was a way to stress the idea of an early united Europe. Thus it makes sense most of the gameplay should revolve around Europe. I personally don't care for the work done in the rest of the world because Europe is my only focus as it is really the only truly exciting place at that time in history (which of course, is up for debate). They should make a World Universalis or Asia Universalis sometime if they want to cater to anywhere else. The game is too big to spread focus around to multiple parts.
 
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