So... development is still not a free feature. Yeah...

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Lor360

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The real problem is that DLC features are all over the place. Instead of having thematical DLCs like
"armies" "Mediterranean sea" "subjects" "east African nations"...

If you want to manage your provinces as Muscovy you have;
autonomy reduction in one DLC, estates in another, core cost reducing absolutism from reducing autonomy, 30 more extra states for Russia, colonies for diplo points, state edicts and development.

All mish - mashed into about 4 - 5 separate DLCs with some being free features.

Look, I got all the DLCs at full price so I don't have a stake in this fight but seriously Paradox should just bundle everything except the last 3 DLCs inside the base game already.
 

szmik

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...or they could just give away base game for everyone and make money off DLCs only, so the high barrier of entrance would be a bit lower. Not to mention getting more fans....
 

TheMeInTeam

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I don't think that's the right answer to the problems with it not being a free feature.

EDIT: particularly since that feature, and its interaction with Institutions, is pretty much the only reason I bought CS.

Pushing customers to buy DLC by making a previously free feature (westernization) DLC-gated to ~1/2 of the game's positions is pretty sour business practice.

In both cases, a nation is paying monarch points in order to remove a tech cost penalty. Development gives you a little more than that, so it's the typical model of "remove something you could do for free, then sell an updated version of this power with extra perks as DLC".

Vassal feeding has gone through that cycle multiple times. Estates amount to more monarch points in an environment where their expenses were increased, and cheaper access to even more (half cost advisors). I've done the list before. Balance is done based on DLC existing, and that's exacerbated by being incapable of doing old things in new patches without DLC.

Meanwhile, bugfixes trickle at best while devs/QA combo outright ignores objective bugs reported 4+ times in the bug report forum. With all this going on, the development --> institutions lockdown does come off as a rather anti-customer gesture.
 

SolSys

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If you want to manage your provinces as Muscovy you have;
autonomy reduction in one DLC, estates in another, core cost reducing absolutism from reducing autonomy, 30 more extra states for Russia, colonies for diplo points, state edicts and development.
Bad examples.
Apart from 2 of those, the other features** are not specific to Muscovy. What's more, some of the features are separated by months/years.

Look, I got all the DLCs at full price so I don't have a stake in this fight but seriously Paradox should just bundle everything except the last 3 DLCs inside the base game already.
This is hyperbole at best.

Case in point -- you may own any presently released DLCs, but none of any potential future DLCs. Incorporating any 4th last released DLC into the base game will grant you access to a DLC at no cost giving you "a stake in this fight". Semantics? maybe. True? yes.


**since when was "autonomy reduction" a DLC feature?
 

Big Bad France

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Paradox really should just incorporate DLCs more than a couple of years old into the base game. It would make it a lot easier to make future updates work (wouldn't have to ensure people without certain DLCs can still play an enjoyable game) and would probably result in a better end product for everyone. Plus, it would help ease the biggest barrier I face when trying to convince any of my friends to buy this game. People see the full price tag of the game including all of the DLCs and they refuse to even consider it. It's pretty expensive, even on sale.
 

MagnusDux

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for me monarch points for devolpming not working like this

for me that devolping province begun long ago and you just complated it by spending monarchy points

but yeah it would be cool if it had time limit

maybe make it you can devolp same province only 4 times in a year? Or spend max 100 (if base cost higher you can only devolp it once) to devolp at same province?
but yeah gameplay wise current version makes it much more better ...
also small nations are weak enought allready ... hell big nations more stable than opms O_O

It would be cool if it worked like building something. You spend 1 dev point, the little crane/building animation pops up on your province and it takes X amount of months to develop it from 3 production to 4 and you have to wait for the development to finish before you can do it again

No, the main problem is not time, it's the fact that it is an unrealistic mechanic, the main element behind the growth of wealth in a province isn't government spending resources, it's trade. We already have buildings we can build by spending money, development should grow naturally, dependant on certain factors, like the level of infrastructure, the openness of trade, religious and cultural tolerance, stability of a country, labour mobility (if serfdom is implemented it showld slow growth, for example), institutions, migration, etc...
 

Lor360

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Bad examples.
Apart from 2 of those, the other features** are not specific to Muscovy. What's more, some of the features are separated by months/years.


This is hyperbole at best.

Case in point -- you may own any presently released DLCs, but none of any potential future DLCs. Incorporating any 4th last released DLC into the base game will grant you access to a DLC at no cost giving you "a stake in this fight". Semantics? maybe. True? yes.


**since when was "autonomy reduction" a DLC feature?

The forum and reddit are full of "what DLCs do I need" homework. One of the most popular surprises is people buying the steppes themed DLC only to discover that playing with Mongolia basically needs the "support independence" DLC. Why is half of spying inovations in Mare Nostrum and the other half in The Cossacks?

You can argue that new players should do homework on every obscure ability they don't even know they will miss until 200 years into the game. I have no idea where the features to auto explore land and auto explore oceans are and weather or not they are free, but I do know they are definitely not in conquest of paradise where you think they should fit thematically. So now I need 1 or 2 totaly unrelated DLCs for a full Portugal colonizer experience.

OK let's start playing Portugal and colonize!
50 years in; woops, turns out you need The Cossacks DLC to set your attitude towards natives. Have fun stationing your troops all across the world and paying permanent maintenance for your entire army to prevent native attacks. Also, i guess you cant afford to attack northern africa or expand cause half of your army will be guarding your colonies overseas for atleast the first 100 years.Cause you bought only conquest of paradise and mare nostrum for your colonizing game. But set native attitude is (logically) in the steppe peoples and estates DLC.

Like I said, this won't affect me. Honestly I'll buy every DLC day 1. But this randomized ability and mechanics placement is toxic to new players.
 
Last edited:

raikaria

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Development should have been made free as soon as it became tied to something as integral as the new technology system.

Without Common Sense; Asia can wind up with tech maluses worse than pre-institution Native Americans; and FAR worse than their old 60%.

The thing is; if something is made free from a previous DLC; something gets added to replace it. Usually; these are small features. But development is a large feature.

Honestly; I think the best thing Paradox can do is just bundle Common Sense [And Art of War] with the core game. Or at least offer a permament bundle of Core game + CS+AoW.
 

Thronwen

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OK let's start playing Portugal and colonize!
50 years in; woops, turns out you need The Cossacks DLC to set your attitude towards natives. Have fun stationing your troops all across the world and paying permanent maintenance for your entire army to prevent native attacks. Also, i guess you cant afford to attack northern africa or expand cause half of your army will be guarding your colonies overseas for atleast the first 100 years.Cause you bought only conquest of paradise and mare nostrum for your colonizing game. But set native attitude is (logically) in the steppe peoples and estates DLC.

You actually get an event to set your policy once you started your first colony (MTTH: 1Month). And at least all the colony events are tied to your choice there and I blieve uprising, etc aswell.

So yes, there are cases where the paid features are poorly accessible when you don't have the dlc, but for others there are mechanics provided for non dlc owners.

Also the thing everyone forgets is: if you can't develop, so can't the ai.
What does this mean: The neighbouring AI, which is most important, has neither development nor institution advantage over you. And in most cases it is just fine to let institutions spawn naturally or conquer provinces which have the institution embraced. Which makes no difference between dlc and non dlc.
If you just look at institution development you on average have to spend 2000 points on it. in order to recuperate that you need to tech up 6.6 times if you are behind 50 years. so yes it may make a difference to european nations. but NOT to your neighbours. and if you embrace an institution it spreads to your neighbours as well. So technological it makes no difference, whether you have it or not.

The only difference is the worth of the province. But when you own the dlc and develop provinces so does the ai, which leads to the difference:
With DLC: You have more money, tech, ... As do your neighbours
Without DLC: Less money, Less tech, ... As do your neighbours.

And this is something often forgotten...


Yes I agree that DLCs need a restructuring of sorts and adding older DLC as part of a bundle would be nice for new players. But making everything older then 1 year or so free or adding the mechanics to the base game is totally over the top. And definitely not a wise business decision even if you get more exposure that way. Because then you let people also get accustomed to the mentality: "If I wait 1 year it's free anyway."

And if you play MP the DLC of the hoster are available to everyone, so no need to argue with that either.

And if you are whining about dlc prices you have to factor in the following:
Every patch provides free content and paid content. The thing is, the free content is not actually free in terms of development costs. So when you buy the dlc you are also paying for the free content, notz only the paid content. But that is where you have the choice: Do I buy the dlc or not . Compared to other games you have the valid choice of not buying a dlc and still getting nearly as much out of the game. Which is actually really customer friendly.

TL;DR: Yes restructuring of DLC would be good. But making the DLC content entirely free not.

Edit: And honestly a lot of stuff in the DLC would confuse new players even more in a complex game such as EU4. So it provides the option to learn a bit and then, if you like the game, get a dlc or two.
Also: if you just calculate how much you pay per hour played it is at least way less then a lot of other games. You pay probably around 10-20€ per DLC. Even cheaper on sales. If you play 2 games or so per dlc, which allows you to experience unique things about the dlcs without getting too much repetitiveness, you still play around 30- 50 hours or so, which results in around 0.5€ per hour. Which is quite cheap for games if you just look around a lot of new titles.
 
Last edited:

TheMeInTeam

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Every patch provides free content and paid content. The thing is, the free content is not actually free in terms of development costs. So when you buy the dlc you are also paying for the free content, notz only the paid content. But that is where you have the choice: Do I buy the dlc or not . Compared to other games you have the valid choice of not buying a dlc and still getting nearly as much out of the game. Which is actually really customer friendly.

No. Shaking down old customers to be able to use any version of old features in new patches is not customer friendly. It's the opposite.

Neighboring AI being weak in tech cost is irrelevant. What matters is that if you pay for DLC, you get to shave 1000's of monarch points of cost in each category across a game, even after you factor development investment.

The message the game sends is that if you buy DLC, you can replicate a decent 1.15 westernization timing. If you don't buy DLC, here have less monarch points. It is a "pay $$$ for in-game resources, some of which you used to have access to for owning the base game" model. SP or not, that's dirty money.

That's not okay "because some AI have less monarch points also". It's a substantial balance change and nerf to half the board *contingent solely on the presence of DLC* vs not.

We're not whining about DLC practice any more than you're whining about criticism. It's just dirty business practice to shake down customers for access to stuff in new versions after patching out the older versions of it alongside bugfixes. Not as dirty as blatantly false advertising about cross platform MP compatibility mind you, but still dirty.
 

MateuszNH

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Well I agree development should be free part (or atleast auto-growing), my main problem with dlcs is there aren't good DLC packs, after "mechanics" DLC finished with Mandate of Heaven there should be nice DLC pack for maybe 30-40 euro(not including russia pack and other new "content DLCs") ASAP. I've got all so it doesn't fit me(and all guys not seeing problem with DLC politics on forum) but i know a lot of people being discouraged to even buy basic game because of a lot of DLC very expensive stacked together.
 

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You actually get an event to set your policy once you started your first colony (MTTH: 1Month). And at least all the colony events are tied to your choice there and I blieve uprising, etc aswell.

Not to derail this thread but isnt that event choice just tied to what types of events you get down the line for +/- province ferocity, development and population? Im not sure it affects native uprising chance to a degree where you can put a unguarded colonist in Africa or the Lesser Antiles (so basicaly, the first 100 years, as I said).
 

SolSys

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You can argue that new players should do homework on every obscure ability...
While I may grant you the first point, as those 2 DLCs were released one after the other, your other examples were [again] exercising time travel.

Auto-explore is part of El Dorado which was released in February 2015 while Conquest of Paradise was released in January 2014. And how exactly is this and native policies is a must-have features to play as Portugal? You just play as you did before them -- I, for one, prefer assimilation so I still place units in colonies and many hate the loss of control which came with auto-explore.

I'm sorry to say, but [aside from the 1st] your examples are rather poor as you place subjective importance on them.

Edit: I will say that there are some users with good supporting arguments in the thread. Even if I don't wholly agree with them, I can see the reasoning behind their points.
 

SolSys

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At the very least I can't just oppose a proposition without stating what I would gladly support of instead.

I would support a campaign for an expansion-only** bundle on Steam -- with a bundle discount of at-least 15% off.
I would also get behind a return to bigger discounts on DLCs -- of at-least 67% off.

This is the path I'd like to take. It is economically viable and fair to both the users and the company.
And I'd like if Paradox took that path with me.

Have a good night folks,
SolSys


**which would include all but the last 2 expansions.
 

Lor360

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While I may grant you the first point, as those 2 DLCs were released one after the other, your other examples were [again] exercising time travel.

Auto-explore is part of El Dorado which was released in February 2015 while Conquest of Paradise was released in January 2014. And how exactly is this and native policies is a must-have features to play as Portugal? You just play as you did before them -- I, for one, prefer assimilation so I still place units in colonies and many hate the loss of control which came with auto-explore.

I'm sorry to say, but [aside from the 1st] your examples are rather poor as you place subjective importance on them.

Edit: I will say that there are some users with good supporting arguments in the thread. Even if I don't wholly agree with them, I can see the reasoning behind their points.

Allright fine, if I cant get the general point across ill take 2 minutes to wiki concrete examples and...


Wealth of Nations - Hindu rulers can pick personal deities / Reformed nations can gain and spend fervor points

Res Publica - National focus; Change monarch power priorities, improving one aspect on the expense of the other

El Dorado - Custom Nation Designer and random nations

Common Sense -
Expanded religious mechanics for Protestant and Buddhists nations / new subject interactions

Mare Nostrum -
Condottieri: Nations can rent their armies out to fight in other people's wars / Espionage: New spy actions


I think this is more than enough, ill stop now. And im not even mentioning things that kinda thematicaly fit but would fit even better somewhere else (such as trade leagues being in Mare Nostrum instead of Wealth of Nations, or Free Cities belonging to Common Sense instead Res Publica)

Those are just a few examples of the "buy the ninjas & samurai DLC to enable Switzerland road building mechanics" mess thats only getting worse with 10+ DLCs (I wont even mention the cosmetic DLC mess).
Maybe needing the trade DLC for Hindu religion unlocking is perfectly logical to some people. Or more likely the answer will be "its just not a big deal, who cares about some small deity thingie, buy the DLC if you want that 1 feature so badly or just ignore it, its not that big of a minmaxing bonus, I prefer playing in India without it anyway its just a bother"

As I said, this isnt even a personal problem for me since I always buy every DLC day 1.
But regardless of yours (or mine) opinion on how big of a problem this is, EU4s steam reviews are becoming increasingly more bitter and negative, despite the game being better than ever. Almost exclusivley due to Paradoxes DLC policy.

And the "what feature is where" confusion is only getting bigger and bigger for new players that allready have a hard enough time to get a grip on the basics in this wonderfuly deep game, without having to divine that the ability to promise French land to Castile as England is in the "Russian Horse Tribes of Kamchatka" DLC.
 
Last edited:

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Yes, Development isn't free - Paradox has to keep the lights on after all.
 

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Development should have been made free as soon as it became tied to something as integral as the new technology system.

Without Common Sense; Asia can wind up with tech maluses worse than pre-institution Native Americans; and FAR worse than their old 60%.

The thing is; if something is made free from a previous DLC; something gets added to replace it. Usually; these are small features. But development is a large feature.

Honestly; I think the best thing Paradox can do is just bundle Common Sense [And Art of War] with the core game. Or at least offer a permament bundle of Core game + CS+AoW.

and so? Whats your problem with being behind in Asia in a noncompetitive Singleplayer campaign? Have you ever seen a european country in Asia outside of Goa and some random islands? You wont be behind your neighbours because they are as backwards as you.