So, Byzantine influx...?

[wobbit]

When is the last documented use of Greek fire? Wrong side of the Fourth Crusade I fear.

I fear you are right. For the Byzantines at least. There are a few other cases later on. Compulsorary wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire

By 1399 the Byzantines were NOT on a technological par with western Europe. They are rightly in the Eastern tech group. If you get them up on their feet again, you can represent renewed technological and cultural vigour through Westernising. It's not ideal- if you want to represent a greek resurgance you wouldn't be calling it westernising- but it works within the mechanics of the game.

I can understand the cultural bonus given by the fall of Byzantium representing the appearance of Greek scholars and texts in the West. Even after the fourth crusade Constantinople was an important cultural centre and the fall of the city to the Muslims led to an exodus of people and ideas. As Profane, notanumber and cityinthesea have said, Byzantium doesn't get the bonus because they already have the culture. Perhaps the fall of other key Christian cities such as Rome to the Muslims could prompt similar decisions? It's just that Constantinople was a large and unique city and is also one that is likely to fall to the Turks that meant it got it's own event.

[edit]damn slow typing

Riddermark has it exactly right- where did that quote come from by the way? It sounds familiar.

@Grubnessul: You're right, they probably weren't as corrupt as is often made out. They were heavily reliant on the west, particularly the Italian city states, for certain vital economic and military functions though which really messed them up politically.

 

[unmerged(115611)]

Perhaps let the byzantines start with 80% or so cultural tradition to represent their cultural advancement? It wouldn't give very large bonusses because the byzantines arent rich enough to support 2-3 5 star advisors, but it could be used to your advantage if you use it carefully. Besides, the byzantines will find themselves at war so much they wont get cultural tradition for the first 50 or so years anyway.

 

[BurningEGO]

By 1399 the Byzantines were NOT on a technological par with western Europe. They are rightly in the Eastern tech group.

They might have not been on a technological par with the western europe, but were they as "primitive" as the other nations that are on the Eastern tech group? Definitely not.

 

[Grubnessul]

They might have not been on a technological par with the western europe, but were they as "primitive" as the other nations that are on the Eastern tech group? Definitely not.

I think the Turks actually had a lead over them, at least in gunpowder technologies.

 

[Profane]

They might have not been on a technological par with the western europe, but were they as "primitive" as the other nations that are on the Eastern tech group? Definitely not.

Tech groups aren't about your current level of technology and culture they are about innovation, and byzantium at that point in time was most definitely not an innovative state. I would say the turks were at that point by far more innovative.

 

[Riddermark]

I think the Turks actually had a lead over them, at least in gunpowder technologies.

Is that because they hired the cannon guy that Byzantines couldn't afford?

 

[Trin Tragula]

I think the Turks actually had a lead over them, at least in gunpowder technologies.

The turks had a lead over all of western europe too for the first 150 years or so
Atleast for land, government and production techs.

 

[L Lawliet]

China knew of Gunpowder and Paper (paper money too!) ages before the West did, and had boatloads of geniuses. They get no bonuses and they're in the Asian tech group.

 

[Zolotaya]

China knew of Gunpowder and Paper (paper money too!) ages before the West did, and had boatloads of geniuses. They get no bonuses and they're in the Asian tech group.

Yes, I just learned about how Japanese ninjas used roadside (under-the-road) bombs to assassinate a virtually untouchable Samurai during this time period.

I learn new things every day.

 

[joriandrake]

Their modifier is buried under a mountainous amount of corruption tradition and inefficient bureaucracy. They might have had amazing resources in human knowledge and know how but they did not make good use of them.

i am all for having negative and positive effects both be represented

 

[unmerged(115611)]

Perhaps let the byzantines start with 80% or so cultural tradition to represent their cultural advancement? It wouldn't give very large bonusses because the byzantines arent rich enough to support 2-3 5 star advisors, but it could be used to your advantage if you use it carefully. Besides, the byzantines will find themselves at war so much they wont get cultural tradition for the first 50 or so years anyway.

(I think this is a good solution?)

 

[Grubnessul]

China knew of Gunpowder and Paper (paper money too!) ages before the West did, and had boatloads of geniuses. They get no bonuses and they're in the Asian tech group.

China hardly used it's gunpowder militarily though. And didn't really need to do so anyway.

As for the cannon: I'm not deep enough into the details for that, they hired that cannon?

 

[Riddermark]

China hardly used it's gunpowder militarily though. And didn't really need to do so anyway.

As for the cannon: I'm not deep enough into the details for that, they hired that cannon?

I'm not a pro either but I did check the Fall of Constantinople article on wikipedia and seemed that their cannons weren't sufficient and this guy (forgot the name) offered his crazy cannon idea that would blow the walls of Babylon away, to the Byzantines but due to lack of cash he moved on to the ottomans and he was hired and drown in money to fulfill the project.

The cannon had some drawbacks, like a 3-hours reloading time, and did collapse under its own weight. But was carried by 60 bulls?oxes? and hundreds of men

Of course my retelling is awful just - I just meant to spark interest. Check it out for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople

 

[Grubnessul]

Hmm that sounds pretty much like a doomsday device xD

 

[Riddermark]

I guess in a way it was

 

[wobbit]

Tech groups aren't about your current level of technology and culture they are about innovation, and byzantium at that point in time was most definitely not an innovative state. I would say the turks were at that point by far more innovative.

This. The tech groups are all about ability and willingness to change. This is what I meant. I'd agree that at the start of the game the Turks were more innovative (at least in terms of military). But they lost that edge fairly quickly after they got established in Europe I think. I think this is represented in game by the good land tech advisor they start with.

The Turks did have pretty good gunpowder technology even though they did hire the cannon at Constantinople. Their musketeers (or early equivilent) were a major reason for their defeat of the Mamluks. It was basically a war fought between Mamluk horsemen armed and (very well) trained with traditional weapons and a mass of Turks armed with gunpowder weapons. Mamluks never stood a chance.

 

[Arilou]

They might have not been on a technological par with the western europe, but were they as "primitive" as the other nations that are on the Eastern tech group? Definitely not.

Err, yes? The turks were more advanced than they are and they are eastern.

 

[Grubnessul]

According to the wiki article on the fall of Constantinople, they did use Greek Fire during the siege...

 

[unmerged(109898)]

According to the wiki article on the fall of Constantinople, they did use Greek Fire during the siege...

In that case I'm off to make my own BYZ only-modifier, but what should it be?
Should be something like that if you are Greek, Christian, owns and cores Thrace you get the modifier. And the modifier could be like: +10% defensiveness and maybe an increased galley fire. What do you think?
Btw, shouldn't the Byzzies be allowed to build roads from the beginning?

 

[BurningEGO]

Err, yes? The turks were more advanced than they are and they are eastern.

Yes and the other countless muslim craptacular nations were more advanced than the romans themselves... quite hilarious to hear that. I am not speaking of the ottomans or some other biggie here.