So, about flipping vassal culture..

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Let's say I am playing Poland. I PU lithuania, make them flip culture to polish, and then annex.
Wont this mean that lithuanian culture provinces have no nation to rebel to? Afterall, the lithuania tag is now polish cultured. Infact it would mean lithuania can pop up in, say, krakow, but not lithuania proper. For some cultures, such as lithuanian, this would mean that they have nothing to revolt to at all!

Is there any way around this?

 

[zdlugasz]

That would be really nasty side-effect.
Then there are cultural unions, broken even now, I wonder what happens if you win HYW and change primary culture of France. Will FRA tag become cultural union of their new culture?

 

[Rinsukaze]

That would be really nasty side-effect.
Then there are cultural unions, broken even now, I wonder what happens if you win HYW and change primary culture of France. Will FRA tag become cultural union of their new culture?

You would need FRA to be under 50% of liberty desire, which can be pretty difficult AFAIK

What is still unknown is if the culture flip is immediate or it takes some time. i think it would be better the latter, as added to the +50% of the culture flip it can give a lot of troublesome rebels if not managed properly.

 

[zdlugasz]

You would need FRA to be under 50% of liberty desire, which can be pretty difficult AFAIK

What is still unknown is if the culture flip is immediate or it takes some time. i think it would be better the latter, as added to the +50% of the culture flip it can give a lot of troublesome rebels if not managed properly.

It all depends or relative strength. If you are GB, and say Force France to release something, and/or additionally Burgundy, Savoy and/or some Iberian nation decided to take something out or France I do not see problem with it.

 

[zdlugasz]

From my post in DD thread. I have seen a few people concerned that culture convert might be overpowered, but as usual devs did not comment to disperse our worries.

...
PU Russia (or any Big Blob like Austria, France, Spain, ...) and you can expect that they will convert quite a few land provinces for you. Old primary culture may stay accepted but other provinces from their old culture group (and of course anything outside their culture group) will get converted as soon as they are not accepted (breton and other small cultures in France and Iberia, tatar, finnish, byelorussian and ruthenian etc. ..., I dunno how cultural unions will react - e.g. if I change French primary culture to some other - I expect that it will even more bugged than it is now).

My concern is that it might be able to get PU on Big Blob as a medium country (using other allied Blobs to beat them), and if they are below 50% LD you force culture change. Now they are 99% LD, get support and you grant them independence. However after say 100 years all Siberia, most of East Europe etc. is not Russian, but e.g. Lombard/Bavarian/... , or big part of Iberia is Danish.

So my plea to Paradox:
1) Please add mechanism to reject/revert culture change, e.g. after declaring independence war
2) add more constraints in addition to 50% LD (say total tax (development), same religion etc)


What makes me sad is that Paradox decided to invest into broken culture mechanism (and I do not think that is anybody here who will say that current culture mechanism is fine: accepted culture magically gained after 3 years of coring process and later lost after 200 years of acceptance, broken cultural unions, possibility to erase/overwrite culture in a few years (e.g. Austrian Lowlands and Hungary, English Ireland, Swedish Finland, Spanish Italy etc.) , ... just to name a few), instead to rework it.

With each patch Paradox introduces more and more even smaller tax-wise cultures, which will become prey of this new mechanism.

 

[zdlugasz]

And finally I question the whole implementation of sound (?) idea of forcing culture change.

I might be wrong but I assume that this is supposed to represent influence on court, among nobility, which starts to follow trends/habits/fashion of PU senior. I suspect that it is inaccurate overall. Courts of, originally Polish, dukes of Piast dynasty in Silesia got germanized because of their connections with HRE, similarly for dukes of Pommerania, however provinces had been germanized mostly because of colonization from central Germany, both peasants and burgers (especially since both areas were depopulated during 30YW).
French became language and culture of most of European courts/nobility during late EU4 timeframe - without any PU-ing.

I wonder can anyone provide example of culture-conversion of "provinces" by PU-ing?

And how it will work in game?
1) It will be colonies which will get new culture (historically many of the colonists were malcontents (political and religious, unwanted, even outright criminals and poor looking for better fortunes - so I would guess that "old" culture people would decide to emigrate, not nobility, cozy and safe in their mansions.
2) It will be unaccepted cultures of culture group and of course cultures outside culture group, at the fringes of empire (or even overseas) which will be converted - does it feel right?

IF any culture conversion should take place, IMO it should concern previous primary culture at the first place, not colonies and definitely not conquered minorities at borders. PU assumes peaceful acceptation of overlord, and it was primary culture which accepted that overlord.

In summary: without overhaul of culture mechanism new proposal makes things even more broken IMO (and probably will introduce "funny" bugs like issue spotted in the first post).

 

[Clownie]

I wonder can anyone provide example of culture-conversion of "provinces" by PU-ing?

Denmark-Norway.

 

[SchwarzerKaiser]

Then there are cultural unions, broken even now, I wonder what happens if you win HYW and change primary culture of France. Will FRA tag become cultural union of their new culture?

No, France will stay cultural union of French, it just has a different primary culture.
You could make the Commonwealth cultural union of the Baltic cultures for example and a Polish formed PLC won't become the union of West Slavic.

 

[zdlugasz]

Denmark-Norway.

That is little non specific. Does it mean that you think that majority of Oslo population is Danish (or Trondheim, or whatever). And then we have Iceland - even smaller fish in terms of population and "culture impact". I do not think that they about themselves "whatever, in reality we are Danish"

 

[zdlugasz]

No, France will stay cultural union of French, it just has a different primary culture.
You could make the Commonwealth cultural union of the Baltic cultures for example and a Polish formed PLC won't become the union of West Slavic.

Well, we do not know it "will stay", only devs know it. But in principle I might agree since culture_group_union is different variable.


Thus France is bad example, similarly Spain, Scandinavia, GB and any other union, since they in theory could have union and be of different primary culture (although it is bugged right now, but maybe it is only UI which is bugged) .
But Castille/Aragon/Portugal/Muscovy are not, and you can block them from becoming union, and PUed Castille will clean other small Iberian cultures etc. (I think most of players would be able to do it with France vs. Castille/Portugal/England, and Poland/Sweden/Lithuania/Muscovy could do it to Sweden/Muscovy).

 

[Clownie]

That is little non specific. Does it mean that you think that majority of Oslo population is Danish (or Trondheim, or whatever). And then we have Iceland - even smaller fish in terms of population and "culture impact". I do not think that they about themselves "whatever, in reality we are Danish"

The modern Norwegian language is a Dano-Norwegian pidgin. We no longer speak Old West Norse, as we did prior to the Kalmar Union.

Iceland wasn't impacted, since it was largely autonomous.

 

[zdlugasz]

The modern Norwegian language is a Dano-Norwegian pidgin. We no longer speak Old West Norse, as we did prior to the Kalmar Union.

Iceland wasn't impacted, since it was largely autonomous.

Culture does not mean language. Even Devs admit it. How many Irish speak Gaelic (everyday)?

I am willing to admit that we do not know what would happen if Danmark did not lose Norway to Sweden. Maybe in 1905 majority of Norwegians would not care and would be willing to stay in Danmark but I doubt.
Still, Danmark kept union in fact almost 100% of EU4 timeframe! Upper class Lithuanians and Byelorussians got polonized in Commonwealth (we could say that that union ended in 1795, so only little earlier than Danish-Norwegian union). But the bulk of population was not "culturally converted". Only rich/influential ones (and probably not all) got converted, peasants, poor remained "unconverted".

It tells me that culture conversion and forcing culture change as are in game (or proposed) are nonsense.

 

[Clownie]

Culture does not mean language. Even Devs admit it. How many Irish speak Gaelic (everyday)?

Are you seriously saying the Irish of today are culturally identical to the Irish of medieval-renaissance times?

Seriously?

 

[zdlugasz]

Are you seriously saying the Irish of today are culturally identical to the Irish of medieval-renaissance times?

Seriously?

C'mon man, be serious, I never said it.
What I am saying is that even when they use English language, they are not Englishmen, they are Irish and England should not get 100% of tax, manpower, no unrest malus etc.

Hundreds of years of PU (Poland and Lithuania, Danmark and Norway) did not eradicate Lithuanians or Norwegians. And the current culture mechanics will cause that if France (player) will PU England, then there will be French Ireland in some time.


Edit: since your previous post indicated that because Old Norse is dead than Norway had been culturally converted.

Yes, They had been, but not to Danish only to modern Norwegian.

 

[chrnno]

That would be really nasty side-effect.
Then there are cultural unions, broken even now, I wonder what happens if you win HYW and change primary culture of France. Will FRA tag become cultural union of their new culture?

HRE works as german union regardless of your culture so I presume it will be the same for all others.