Small faction gripe

[Esurnir]

so I'm working toward making a synth empire, I started as the United Nations of earth (fanatic egalitarian xénophile) my first two factions are the egalitarian (who wants free movement and no slavery) and xénophile who wants the same.

Here's the problem, I have synth now, because I'm not materialist I can't chose synth citizenship.

That's fine. The problem is that now those two faction are mad at me and took from 80+ happiness down to 50% because I'm hurting synth with no hope of solving the problem with those two ethics.

Right now I'm suppressing both faction and promoting the scientist in the hope of getting able to go materialist asap.

I think either : those two faction stop giving a damn about synths, at least the xénophile should. Or I should be allowed to switch to synth right with at least egalitarian.

 

[Slynx]

my f.purifiers gain xenophile attraction after i resettled some of pops on a conquered planets (and they started living among purged xenos)
they formed a faction that wants migration treaties with other empires.
i think stellaris should implement a building for mentally ill pops

 

[Esurnir]

my f.purifiers gain xenophile attraction after i resettled some of pops on a conquered planets (and they started living among purged xenos)
they formed a faction that wants migration treaties with other empires.
i think stellaris should implement a building for mentally ill pops

I think that part is WAD

 

[Slynx]

WAD?
getting xenophobe attraction for living among xenos, but xenophile for purging them/777

 

[Hyomoto]

Yeah, because they are watching the species be purged. I mean, haven't you ever met a vegetarian who doesn't eat meat because they were raised around a slaughterhouse?

I had a xenophobic population to start, but our peaceful dealings with other species over hundreds of years means no one is anymore. Sure, we have a governmental facade for it, even some history of xeno purging early on. Now though? No one in the population is actually actively engaged in it, and we haven't had any poor dealings with xenos. It honestly makes sense that until we go to war or are attacked, we are more like ... Egoists.

I really like the new system. Dynamic and interesting. I mean, in the synth example you pushed ahead against the will of the people. Of course they are unhappy. You wanted a synth future but they didn't. Now you are clambering to convince them otherwise. That's awesome.

 

[The Founder]

my f.purifiers gain xenophile attraction after i resettled some of pops on a conquered planets (and they started living among purged xenos)
they formed a faction that wants migration treaties with other empires.
i think stellaris should implement a building for mentally ill pops

The buildings are already there. It is called Ethics Convergence.

WAD?
getting xenophobe attraction for living among xenos, but xenophile for purging them/777

Did they happen to be Charismatic? Charmisatic Aliens is a seperate Xenophile Atraction Factor/Anti-Xenophobe Factor.
http://www.stellariswiki.com/Factions#Attraction

I am playing wiht Imigration, and have 0 atraction for Xenophobe. Granted I have so many Anti-Xenophobe/Xenophile Factors, one being flipped would not register:

 

[Slynx]

my species were default humans from Deneb...and xenos were repugnant.
unfortunately i've already purged both xenos and humans with xenophile ethos. so i can't check anymore.

 

[Esurnir]

Just a small precision, the egalitarian objected to the lack of free movement not the slavery (didn't register the synth for that), the xénophile however saw the synth as oppressed for the no alien slavery

 

[Hugh Mann Bean]

"Does this unit have a soul?"

I find the Stellaris implementation of AI pops kinda...uncomfortable. Or rather, their interactions with the various ethos. Frankly, any of those ethos should be able to find a good reason to give AI rights.

Authoritarian: "Our government and society is focused on the most efficient and effective form of order in a wild and untamed galaxy. As we have integrated more and more AI into our government functions, our government has become more streamlined, more orderly. It is for this reason I have named R. Giskard as my successor..."
Egalitarian: "How can we call ourselves "Egalitarian" when we keep slaves simply because their origin is "artificial"?"
Militarialists: "Units with AI integration are more dangerous, and more capable. As we integrate AI into more levels of our society, we see the same increase in capacity and readiness."
Spiritualists: "We see sapient life as the only real truth, the only reality. And yet we say AI are sapient, but not real. This is a fundamental flaw, not in AI, but in us, in not recognizing the children of our minds."

Anyway, could go on, but post is long enough already.

 

[The Founder]

Authoritarian: "Our government and society is focused on the most efficient and effective form of order in a wild and untamed galaxy. As we have integrated more and more AI into our government functions, our government has become more streamlined, more orderly. It is for this reason I have named R. Giskard as my successor..."

Authorians Enslave everyone equally. Why would the Robots be an exception when no other species is?

Egalitarian: "How can we call ourselves "Egalitarian" when we keep slaves simply because their origin is "artificial"?"

Same was with Authority: Without Materialist/Spiritualist they could go either way. That is why Egalitarians should skip Robots - other Ethics might override it.
And AI Exploiter is a AI Personality tag that Egalitarians Empires can get.

Militarialists: "Units with AI integration are more dangerous, and more capable. As we integrate AI into more levels of our society, we see the same increase in capacity and readiness."

That is the same reasoning as giving aliens Miltiary Service rights. Wich is affected by Xenophile/Phobe, not militarist.

Spiritualists: "We see sapient life as the only real truth, the only reality. And yet we say AI are sapient, but not real. This is a fundamental flaw, not in AI, but in us, in not recognizing the children of our minds."

Spirtualists consdier the Soul to be more important then the Body. Indeed there is a shoot-out to that, if you ever AI upload all your citizen. They say "you are all Soulless things":
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ken-and-they-become-wait-spiritual-d.1010677/
(Ignore that the Spiritualsit Empire is full of Robots. Happened due to Limbo Event chain).

 

[Hugh Mann Bean]

Authorians Enslave everyone equally. Why would the Robots be an exception when no other species is?

How can you say the strong should rule the weak, if you don't include yourself in that equation?

Same was with Authority: Without Materialist/Spiritualist they could go either way. That is why Egalitarians should skip Robots - other Ethics might override it.
And AI Exploiter is a AI Personality tag that Egalitarians Empires can get.

I'm sorry, you can't call yourself an "Egalitarian" if you follow it with "except for those people over there."

That is the same reasoning as giving aliens Miltiary Service rights. Wich is affected by Xenophile/Phobe, not militarist.

The US military has a lot of robots, and their squads do, in fact, anthropomorphize them, AFAIK. Even knowing better. Even neutral will coast towards integration, even if they're not Xenophiles. The Romans were by no means Xenophiles, and plenty of people not from Rome, or Italy, had Roman Citizenship; even entire provinces.

Spirtualists consdier the Soul to be more important then the Body. Indeed there is a shoot-out to that, if you ever AI upload all your citizen. They say "you are all Soulless things":
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ken-and-they-become-wait-spiritual-d.1010677/
(Ignore that the Spiritualsit Empire is full of Robots. Happened due to Limbo Event chain).

Yeah, I don't think we're going to agree there. At all.

Ok, so I think the difference is that you're trying to explain how it works in Stellaris terms. That's fine; I actually understand that.

I just fundamentally disagree with how Stellaris seems to define certain parts of certain terms.

OTOH, it's not like people don't regularly proclaim one thing and do another in real life.

Anyway, this conversion is starting to drift out of the real of a game, so maybe stop here.

 

[Hugh Mann Bean]

...For some reason, the forum seems to think my attempt to fix the post quotes was "spam". Ah well.

 

[Sorren]

I have this problem too.

The factions say it is right to grant synths citizenship while the government says it is wrong to grant synths citizenship. Why would a freedom based government enslave anyone, synthetic or not? I think of Data in Star Trek, the Federation is a freedom based government but that alone did not answer whether Data is a person. The debate was still open. However in Stellaris just by being Egalitarian, all synths are slaves, no argument. There should at least be the option to allow synths citizenship.

That's my opinion, I welcome others.

 

[The Founder]

...For some reason, the forum seems to think my attempt to fix the post quotes was "spam". Ah well.

If you has this kind of bug, it is uaually a broken close tag way up. Propably after the first post you quoted.

To answer you question:
"How can you say the strong should rule the weak, if you don't include yourself in that equation?"
I am only saying that because I am on the side of the strong. Strong in numbers, power, technology or whatever else allows me to get my will put into action.
(Hypotheticalyl speaking, not literally).
And especially the robot leaders would say: "Hey, that caste system worked out to get us here. I am sure it will help us stay on top against all those Spiritualist that would want to dismantle us!"

"I'm sorry, you can't call yourself an "Egalitarian" if you follow it with "except for those people over there.""
It is still in question if Robots ARE people. Indeed that is the very core of the question.

"The US military has a lot of robots, and their squads do, in fact, anthropomorphize them, AFAIK. Even knowing better. Even neutral will coast towards integration, even if they're not Xenophiles. The Romans were by no means Xenophiles, and plenty of people not from Rome, or Italy, had Roman Citizenship; even entire provinces."
Do dogs, cats and cows have citizen rights? Or are they considered not-people?

Rome changed of over the 12 centuries it existed:
Originally it give not give Citizenrights to fellow Itallians.
At the end, everyone that served in the miltiary was considered a Roman.
Prime example of change from Xenophobe to Xenophile. 12 centuries existence will do that to you.

"Ok, so I think the difference is that you're trying to explain how it works in Stellaris terms. That's fine; I actually understand that. "
Then make a mod that makes it right. And realise that the Stellaris way is the closest possible approximation without going insane trying to code it.

I did propose "Ethics rule override" civics for fringe cases:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-5-civics-idea-ethos-rule-overriders.1006009/

 

[Hugh Mann Bean]

Yeah, I can definitely agree the ethics need more flexibility. And I can definitely agree that by the time you can code a game with "pretty near everything", you've also got Star Trek Holodecks, which were grossly underutilized in the series. Well, in-setting. In the real world, it was a major step forward in movie effects.

Data is one of my favourite characters.

And I also agree that it's possible to get an advanced chatbot that seems sapient. We've got them now, for certain definitions of "seems" and certain definitions of "advanced".

Anyway, you got some good points there, but it's Saturday and I don't want to get too deep into society research.

And they have made quite a lot of improvements since the start, and are continuing to. And what we got is quite good, so... Useless internet griping.

 

[Esurnir]

Ok I think the thread is getting sidetracked ^^;.

I think my gripe is an oversight / bug since the egalitarian party actually didn't register the slavery issue of synths as problematic, only their migration rights.

But the bottom line of my complaint is that : factions that are embraced shouldn't have issues which their own ethic cannot tackle. Barring a restriction from another ethic. which is the rule that's broken with the synth rights issue.

As a side note, synth right should be moved to the regular tabs instead of being policy driven.

It's a buggy mess at the moment.

Just enforce slavery / undesirable only if the user is not materialist, undesirable only if spiritualist, after all the code is there for it.

I should reform my thoughts into multiple thread.

 

[The Founder]

Ok I think the thread is getting sidetracked ^^;.

I think my gripe is an oversight / bug since the egalitarian party actually didn't register the slavery issue of synths as problematic, only their migration rights.

But the bottom line of my complaint is that : factions that are embraced shouldn't have issues which their own ethic cannot tackle. Barring a restriction from another ethic. which is the rule that's broken with the synth rights issue.

Agreed. Historically the "Mechanical" Trait or Robot pos are lockout for Slavery checks. Robots can not even trigger the new Unrest based Slave rebellion.

Xenophiles also should have the Alien Slavery check removed or at least let it exclude Caste System Slavery types (because you are Authoritarian and Enslave every species equally).

As a side note, synth right should be moved to the regular tabs instead of being policy driven.

It's a buggy mess at the moment.

Just enforce slavery / undesirable only if the user is not materialist, undesirable only if spiritualist, after all the code is there for it.

I should reform my thoughts into multiple thread.

What I would also love to see is a way to limit the Upgrade Level of those guys. Wheter they are sentient or not does not mater up to T2. They are little more then Beasts of Burden at that level. They could re-introduce varrying Maintenance cost that way..

 

[Esurnir]

In fact there is some code existing for it, since the livestock condition check for mechanical.

As for xénophile and caste system. It's debatable. Maybe xénophile do not want to force castes onto others ? Residence for the conquered, caste for the main species.

 

[RupertTheBear]

I think it'd be nice if authoritarian govts could more freely switch policies - after all, what is it good for?

It makes Sense that in a pacifist democracy you can't adopt militarist policies. If on the other Hand the king wants to enslave people, he should be able to - massiv unrest could be an incentive Not to try that against a powerful faction's will.

 

[The Founder]

It makes Sense that in a pacifist democracy you can't adopt militarist policies. If on the other Hand the king wants to enslave people, he should be able to - massiv unrest could be an incentive Not to try that against a powerful faction's will.

You can adopt militarism. All you really need to do is engage in the social engineering that will draw your pops towards that path.