Small Divisions vs Large Divisions

[Bane5]

Watching the HoI4 WWW stream, a lot of people commented about a lack of artillery being used by Germany. Something I'm curious about is whether support brigades are a fixed amount per division or whether their size changes in relation to the number of front-line units.

For example, in the division designer:

Would 9x infantry + artillery in 1 division be equal to 3x infantry + artillery in 3 divisions?

Or do the three 3x inf + art represent a force with more heavy weapons than the single 9x inf + art?

This matters for planning out strategies. The latter if true, would be more useful for nations with low manpower but high IC.

 

[AlfredMV]

I believe the latter to be true

 

[shri]

There is a big problem with the 3*Inf + Art divisions, you will have only 3500 manpower vs 10000+ for normal divisions. Which means your divisions can easily "SHATTER".

Eg: As country A, you put the normal divisions, say 5 in the field. country B puts 6 of these "tiny" divisions, now - what happens is due to the "combat width" all these divisions are engaged, but the "normal divisions" have the manpower to soak up casualties and move on whereas the "tiny" ones do not.

Real Life Example: ITALY in WW2. They did "binary divisions" i.e. 6*Inf + 1/2*Militia vs 9*Infantry and paid the hefty price in performance.

 

[Bane5]

There is a big problem with the 3*Inf + Art divisions, you will have only 3500 manpower vs 10000+ for normal divisions. Which means your divisions can easily "SHATTER".

Eg: As country A, you put the normal divisions, say 5 in the field. country B puts 6 of these "tiny" divisions, now - what happens is due to the "combat width" all these divisions are engaged, but the "normal divisions" have the manpower to soak up casualties and move on whereas the "tiny" ones do not.

A 5 vs 6 is obviously a loss in that case for the smaller divisions. But tactically, if you kept a group of these 3 small divisions always together moving around as a single division would and used signal companies and grand battle-plan doctrine to ensure quick reinforcement, do we get better combat performance overall from a heavy weapons advantage?

I am assuming a fight where the actual number of infantry brigades are the same on each side in total. Its just division size that's varied. If the support brigades are just a modifier, then there is no bonus gained in HoI4. A reverse effect might happen with field hospitals for instance.

Are smaller divisions penalized in support equipment cost for having field hospitals if they return a % amount of casualties? Bigger divisions in this case depending on game mechanics, could benefit more from having 15 inf brigades with them if they are just a division-wide modifier.

 

[jamesd]

There is a big problem with the 3*Inf + Art divisions, you will have only 3500 manpower vs 10000+ for normal divisions. Which means your divisions can easily "SHATTER".

Eg: As country A, you put the normal divisions, say 5 in the field. country B puts 6 of these "tiny" divisions, now - what happens is due to the "combat width" all these divisions are engaged, but the "normal divisions" have the manpower to soak up casualties and move on whereas the "tiny" ones do not.

Real Life Example: ITALY in WW2. They did "binary divisions" i.e. 6*Inf + 1/2*Militia vs 9*Infantry and paid the hefty price in performance.

The problem with the Italians was not that they had binary divisions, but that they had limited amounts of older types of supporting equipment. Lets look at the Italian vs German 1940 infantry divisions, on the basis of support per infantry battalion. The Germans had 9 battalions and the Italians had 8 (6 infantry and 2 CCNN).

The Italians had 1.5 x 100mm howitzers, 3 x 75mm guns & 1 x 65mm infantry gun per battalion while the Germans had 1.33 x 150mm howitzers, 4 x 105mm howitzers, 0.67 x 150mm infantry guns and 2 x 75m infantry guns per battalion, a clear advantage to the Germans in both numbers and quality.

The Italians had 3.75 x 81mm mortars and 15.75 x 45mm mortars while the Germans had 6 x 81mm & 9 x 50mm mortars. The Italians had more mortars altogether, but both fired lighter bombs than the Germans and the 45mm was slow to operate, meaning the Germans again had a significant advantage.

The Italians had all of 1 x 47mm AT gun per battalion while the Germans had 8 x 37mm guns. The 47mm may be slightly better than the 37mm, but not better than 8 of them. The Italians had 7.5 x HMG's of an obsolete design while the Germans had 12 x HMG's per battalion that were unmatched in the world. In terms of specialised HOI4 support units, the Italians had 0.125 engineer, signal and medical companies per battalion while the Germans had 0.444 engineers, 0.222 signal and medical and also had 0.222 recon companies.

Then if you look at the basic infantry weapons, the rifle & LMG, the Germans had the better quality again. Its no wonder that Italian troops performed worse than German troops when pitted against the same opponents.

If the HOI4 combat system is designed properly, and where the weapons/equipment numbers and quality per battalion is equal, it shouldn't matter if an army brings 2 x 9 battalion divisions or 3 x 6 battalion divisions into a fight. The advantage of larger divisions in HOI4 should be that we get more value per medical, logistics, signals, maintenance, engineer and recon companies, thus allowing savings in the production of support equipment, with the downside of less flexibility in that 2 larger divisions can at most do 2 things while 3 smaller divisions could do 3 things. Command limits should be another advantage of having larger divisions, but with Field Marshals having unlimited abilities that doesn't really apply.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

The problem with the Italians was not that they had binary divisions, but that they had limited amounts of older types of supporting equipment. Lets look at the Italian vs German 1940 infantry divisions, on the basis of support per infantry battalion. The Germans had 9 battalions and the Italians had 8 (6 infantry and 2 CCNN).

The Italians had 1.5 x 100mm howitzers, 3 x 75mm guns & 1 x 65mm infantry gun per battalion while the Germans had 1.33 x 150mm howitzers, 4 x 105mm howitzers, 0.67 x 150mm infantry guns and 2 x 75m infantry guns per battalion, a clear advantage to the Germans in both numbers and quality.

The Italians had 3.75 x 81mm mortars and 15.75 x 45mm mortars while the Germans had 6 x 81mm & 9 x 50mm mortars. The Italians had more mortars altogether, but both fired lighter bombs than the Germans and the 45mm was slow to operate, meaning the Germans again had a significant advantage.

The Italians had all of 1 x 47mm AT gun per battalion while the Germans had 8 x 37mm guns. The 47mm may be slightly better than the 37mm, but not better than 8 of them. The Italians had 7.5 x HMG's of an obsolete design while the Germans had 12 x HMG's per battalion that were unmatched in the world. In terms of specialised HOI4 support units, the Italians had 0.125 engineer, signal and medical companies per battalion while the Germans had 0.444 engineers, 0.222 signal and medical and also had 0.222 recon companies.

Then if you look at the basic infantry weapons, the rifle & LMG, the Germans had the better quality again. Its no wonder that Italian troops performed worse than German troops when pitted against the same opponents.

If the HOI4 combat system is designed properly, and where the weapons/equipment numbers and quality per battalion is equal, it shouldn't matter if an army brings 2 x 9 battalion divisions or 3 x 6 battalion divisions into a fight. The advantage of larger divisions in HOI4 should be that we get more value per medical, logistics, signals, maintenance, engineer and recon companies, thus allowing savings in the production of support equipment, with the downside of less flexibility in that 2 larger divisions can at most do 2 things while 3 smaller divisions could do 3 things. Command limits should be another advantage of having larger divisions, but with Field Marshals having unlimited abilities that doesn't really apply.

That is very very interesting. So as Italy, ad hoc measure would be to combine 2 binary divisions together to get as strong divisions as German ones, just larger ones. And eventually you would then build more heavy equipment and detach infantry battalions from already existing divisions to create new ones. And now you have equal sized and strengh divisions as Germans.

 

[nastydisease]

That is very very interesting. So as Italy, ad hoc measure would be to combine 2 binary divisions together to get as strong divisions as German ones, just larger ones. And eventually you would then build more heavy equipment and detach infantry battalions from already existing divisions to create new ones. And now you have equal sized and strengh divisions as Germans.

I dont think you can move brigades around in this although there might be something in the updated UI they will probably be unveiling soon. Typically you just spend the land xp changing the template of the existing troops, and the men and material are assigned to them. I think there is also a hit to experience for doing so, but you can assign your units to training for a while and they'll get back up to speed. This will cost you in increased equipment attrition however.

 

[Denkt]

If you have 9 infantry battalions you can still add 11 artillery battalions to the division + 5 support battalions.

 

[Bane5]

If you have 9 infantry battalions you can still add 11 artillery battalions to the division + 5 support battalions.

Are you sure about this?

I was certain from dev diary 6 and dev diary 22 and the WWW stream that artillery could only fit into one of the 5 support battalion slots.

 

[Zaku]

Are you sure about this?

I was certain from dev diary 6 and dev diary 22 and the WWW stream that artillery could only fit into one of the 5 support battalion slots.

You can add arty to combat slots. Johan did it in his twitter-Netherlands campaign.

 

[Denkt]

Well I did forget the rule that you can only have similar units in each column, so you may have to go with 10 infantry and 10 artillery.

 

[Bane5]

I guess my original question is moot then. Having support slot arty and regular arty was a bit confusing though.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Denkt]

Think about the firepower a 5-10-10 division have.

 

[nastydisease]

Well you could have 10 inf in two brigades, then another 15 arty in the other three. Then a support company each of rocket artillery and towed.
That would be pretty ridiculous and do mean things to soft targets, although probably a bit short on the org. Then again what is going to live long enough against that thing to damage it?

More seriously tho I wonder to what degree can you mix up the brigades? I think they are sort of categories? I hope artillery, anti tank and anti aircraft can share a brigade.

 

[bkuepers]

I hope artillery, anti tank and anti aircraft can share a brigade.

They definitely can.

Also, another reason not to use small divisions is going to be utilization of support companies. They give a percent boost. So if you have 300 divisions with 3 inf battalions and want hospital companies you'll need 300. If you stick with the standard 9 inf battalions you'll only need 100 for the same number of battalions. That is a lot of support equipment.

 

[LordOfWar16]

They definitely can.

Also, another reason not to use small divisions is going to be utilization of support companies. They give a percent boost. So if you have 300 divisions with 3 inf battalions and want hospital companies you'll need 300. If you stick with the standard 9 inf battalions you'll only need 100 for the same number of battalions. That is a lot of support equipment.

the drawback for big divisions is that your combat widht will be alot higher per division tho. That means less divisions can fight at the same time. Smaller, specialized divisions are alot stronger than huge "throw a bit of everything in there and see what happens" ones.

Dont get me wrong, with smaller i dont mean like 3 battalions or something like that, but i doubt that it will ever be a good idea to throw 25 infantry brigades into an division with 5 support battalions. 9 seems to be a pretty balanced number to me.

 

[Sotahullu]

Well I would definitely use Binary infantry divisions then normal "3-3-3" divisions. Especially with Italy.

I would then compensate smaller numbers with more support with more newest stuff around.

 

[Centerbe]

Are you sure about this?

I was certain from dev diary 6 and dev diary 22 and the WWW stream that artillery could only fit into one of the 5 support battalion slots.

Yep @Denkt is right.
Is possible fit only 1 battallion of arty in the support brigade (and in general only 1 battallion of any support), but in combat brigades is possible fit how many u want...

 

[Adonnus]

The problem with the Italians was not that they had binary divisions, but that they had limited amounts of older types of supporting equipment. Lets look at the Italian vs German 1940 infantry divisions, on the basis of support per infantry battalion. The Germans had 9 battalions and the Italians had 8 (6 infantry and 2 CCNN).

Interesting stuff. But would you say there was any disadvantage at all in having binary divisions on their own, and no other differences?

 

[jamesd]

Interesting stuff. But would you say there was any disadvantage at all in having binary divisions on their own, and no other differences?

The German Mountain and Light divisions were binary and quite effective units. The late war German infantry division was usually 3 regiments of only 2 battalions and so effectively binary and they performed OK. German Motorised and Panzer Grenadier divisions only had 2 regiments of infantry and they were fine. If you look at the way the German Panzer divisions operated they were effectively binary with the 4 infantry and 2 panzer battalions operating under the panzer regiment and infantry brigade HQ's. The early US Airborne divisions had 8 battalions, but the parachute battalions were quite small, meaning they only had the infantry strength of 6 battalions and they were quite effective.

No I don't think there were any particular disadvantages in operating with binary divisions when everything else was equal, as long as you have 50% more divisions than an opponent operating with triangular divisions.